Thoughts on playing rated games on smaller boards?

[happysocks]

Am curious about this and would like to hear your thoughts. Will make provisions to play more rated games in the new year (more serious games in general) and was wondering if I should start playing rated games across all boards or stick with 19x19.

What board size(s) do you play your rated games on and why?

[Kirby]

What rating system are you referring to? Some online servers, for example, only allow rated games on 19x19 boards.

[happysocks]

Didn't realize, that's interesting wonder what the reason is. Cheating? The question is general as relating to pros and cons playing rated games across all board sizes and not really about specific servers but, will be playing mostly smaller boards on KGS and OGS (for now) and 19x19 on IGS and Tygem.

[moyoaji]

FlyOrDie uses one rating for all sizes from 9x9 to 19x19 (including their "standard" 15x15).

If you want to use a real server I don't know of any that rates for smaller boards.

[happysocks]

OGS does and I thought KGS did too but double checking just now I see they don't which means this is maybe a moot point. Am inclined to keep rated games to 19x19 boards seeing that many (most?) real servers don't even allow rated play on smaller boards. Not that I was agonizing over it or anything but this was an easier decision to make than I thought it would be (glad I didn't do anything silly like make a poll). Thanks for help guys.

[DrStraw]

DGS allows rated games of any size. But I don't think this is a good idea. 9x9 is very different from 19x19. Nothing intrinsically wrong with rating 9x9 but I think the rating should be calculated separately from 19x19. I also think that ratings for blitz and regular should be separate.

[skydyr]

DGS allows rated games of any size. But I don't think this is a good idea. 9x9 is very different from 19x19. Nothing intrinsically wrong with rating 9x9 but I think the rating should be calculated separately from 19x19. I also think that ratings for blitz and regular should be separate.

I have to agree with this assessment. Your whole board thinking will get you nowhere on 9x9, for example. I advocate for different ratings for blitz vs non-blitz as well, for that reason. They use different skills (unless you just blitz all your games regardless of time).

[Milkman]

I'm sure there's better sources of info, but 9x9 can't be ranked the same as 19x19. A 5 stone handicap is huge on 9x9. I just ran 5 trials using MFOGv12, using the "3 dan" computer versus 18 kyu - 5 stone handicap, 5 minutes each (20,000 games/sec on my old i7). 4/5 white resigned.

Perhaps if we use a factor of ~4.5 as handicap, so 5 stones 9x9 ~= 22 stones 19x19, things might make more sense.

Also, on 9x9, a 2H seems less useful. At least from what I've seen, play gets centered quickly, so opposite corners often get cut or are hard to connect. On 19x19, opposite corners aren't as big of a deal. (I'm new, so this analysis is probably wrong.)

At any rate, the ranking would need to be rather different and people would need to know it isn't a perfect mapping to full size rank.

[skydyr]

I'm sure there's better sources of info, but 9x9 can't be ranked the same as 19x19. A 5 stone handicap is huge on 9x9. I just ran 5 trials using MFOGv12, using the "3 dan" computer versus 18 kyu - 5 stone handicap, 5 minutes each (20,000 games/sec on my old i7). 4/5 white resigned.

Perhaps if we use a factor of ~4.5 as handicap, so 5 stones 9x9 ~= 22 stones 19x19, things might make more sense.

Also, on 9x9, a 2H seems less useful. At least from what I've seen, play gets centered quickly, so opposite corners often get cut or are hard to connect. On 19x19, opposite corners aren't as big of a deal. (I'm new, so this analysis is probably wrong.)

At any rate, the ranking would need to be rather different and people would need to know it isn't a perfect mapping to full size rank.

At the US Go Congress, they were playing with 2 points komi per rank difference, so 3k vs 6k would be 0.5 komi.

There is also this page, though without anything definitive:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?HandicapForSmallerBoardSizes

[happysocks]

Interesting. Even on even 9x9 seems a spin of the roulette wheel somewhat. Still, quite a captivating and fun game to play.

(;FF[4]
GM[1]
DT[2013-10-20]
PC[OGS: http://online-go.com/game/415504]
PB[happysocks]
PW[Tehanu]
BR[16k]
WR[1d]
CP[online-go.com]
RE[W+0.5]
SZ[9]
KM[6.5]
RU[japanese]
C[Tehanu: hi
]
C[happysocks: hi
]
;B[fd]
;W[de]
;B[fg]
;W[fe]
;B[ed]
;W[ee]
;B[cc]
;W[gd]
;B[dd]
;W[ce]
;B[cg]
;W[eg]
;B[eh]
;W[dh]
;B[dg]
;W[ef]
;B[fh]
;W[bg]
;B[ch]
;W[gf]
;B[gg]
;W[hg]
;B[hh]
;W[gc]
;B[be]
;W[bd]
;B[bc]
;W[cd]
;B[ad]
;W[dc]
;B[ec]
;W[eb]
;B[db]
;W[fc]
;B[dc]
;W[bf]
;B[ae]
;W[ab]
;B[bb]
;W[ac]
;B[aa]
;W[ac]
;B[fb]
;W[gb]
;B[ea]
;W[af]
;B[hf]
;W[he]
;B[ig]
;W[bh]
;B[bi]
;W[ie]
;B[if]
;W[ga]
;B[fa]
;W[ah]
;B[ab]
;W[ai]
;B[ci]
;W[ad]
;B[ff]
;W[ge]
;B[]
;W[df]
;B[di]
;W[cf]
C[Tehanu: ^_^
]
;B[]
C[Tehanu: thnx
]
C[happysocks: ty
]
C[happysocks: thats the closest game i've ever had with a dan.
]
C[Tehanu: you played very well
]
;W[]
)

Are there any good collections of pro 9x9 games available online?

[msgreg]

Are there any good collections of pro 9x9 games available online?

There was a post around here somewhere pointing to dan-level 9x9 games. Can't find it right now.

Here are at least two 9x9 games (games 2 and 3) by experts.
http://www.usgo.org/learn-overview#CommentedBeginners

[comment in the first game]
"This first game is between two beginners like you. The second and third games are played by expert players like you can become.

All three games are from 'The Magic of Go' (Kiseido Press) by Cho Chikun 9-Dan and Richard Bozulich. Commentary is by Peter Shotwell adapted from his and Dr. Sangit Chatterjee's forthcoming book, 'Fire on the Lake.'"

[happysocks]

Thank you for the links, and for the words of encouragement.

[Boidhre]

It's incredibly hard to get handicaps right for 9x9 simply because our handicaps are based off 19x19. The skillsets are rather different (fighting ability and reading depth are heavily focused on in 9x9, you have to fight from early on with little thickness and normally losing the first fight puts you in serious trouble, remember you can trade life for thickness in 19x19 but in 9x9 this is usually foolhardy). On OGS's ladders it was not at all uncommon to see kyu players ranking well above most dan players and holding these spots for months. You'd really need a separate rating system for it and forget the stones idea and work with gradiations of komi and perhaps stones.

[Uberdude]

and normally losing the first fight puts you in serious trouble, remember you can trade life for thickness in 19x19 but in 9x9 this is usually foolhardy

Actually I think sacrificing in clever ways can be a very powerful tactic on 9x9. I'm far from a 9x9 expert as I don't play it much, but I have noticed that often the strong monte carlo bots win by dying but getting so many forcing moves from the sacrifice they get enough of the rest of the board to win. Humans with their aversion to dying tend to overlook sacrifices like those.

[vier]

Are there any good collections of pro 9x9 games available online?

There was the Ricoh pro pairgo tournament (http://www.pairgo.or.jp), with playoffs for the quarterfinal played on 9x9.