The words I put in bold above strike me as interesting, in particular that you want to be considered competent by the go world. Bill Spight said in comments on your game that you are competent now and Bill is a strong player as well as a good judge. The average go rank in the AGA is in the SDK range. Does the problem lie in the meaning of competence or looking for exterior validation? As has been mentioned, "shodan" has different meanings depending on which go community you consider. An American shodan might be 2k in Europe for example. An amateur shodan in Japan might be 4k in the USA, depending on how the shodan earned the rank. Some European shodans would not rank that high in Korea or China. So ... what does competence mean to you? Can you define it without equating it to rank?

If you expect strategy in positional judgement,

1) static territories have little strategy in them but you find more strategy in the various dynamic aspects of positional judgement (including the aspect of dynamic changes to territories),

2) you should realise that positional judgement and strategy are mostly different major parts of go theory (other major parts are reading, psychology and time management). Strategy should presume and rely on already made positional judgement (and, of course, on reading as far as feasible). In other words, positional judgement can enable good strategic planning. (A subset of strategy also helps making good positional judgement when related move sequences must be constructed, so PJ and strategy are not entirely complementary.)

I understand that this is what you meant when you said it, but that's not what kibitzing means. Kibitzing means chatting, but also watching someone else do something and offering unwelcome advice, as in "b should play T1" or "w should resign."

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Patience, grasshopper.

And kibitzing is not really helpfull to our go (even if it can be fun...)

To me competence means being able to do something well. When speaking of go, that corresponds in my mind to the word shodan. I don't think I'm alone in this judgement. While I appreciate that a person I respect calls my play competent, I don't think that this is reflected in the way most go players view kyu ranks. My main question is this: Why is it that a fairly intelligent and dedicated go player is not capable of being able to play at a level that go players would generally view as good? Either there is something wrong with us weaker player or with the standard of competence or both. Of course, it could also be a matter of my perception, but I doubt that I am alone. I won't deny that it is also as you suggest a matter of validation. I've read dozens of books about go, spent countless hours thinking about, writing about, teaching and playing go, and yet I remain a bumbler (in my own eyes, because these are the eyes of a go player), and yes, that irks me. It's not that I deny in any way that the gaps in my ability and the depth of my knowledge place me fairly at a certain rank, it's just that every time I hear someone say "anyone can reach shodan" it feels like a slap in the face, and while I love many things about the game, this is not one of them.

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Patience, grasshopper.

Daal, it seems like the encouraging responses haven't been able to stimulate you. I don't think reaching shodan will be easy for you but I'm sure it is possible. Yes you have read dozens of go books and spent countless hours thinking about the game. I believe your level of understanding is about shodan. I saw this in your comments on my game. Now it is a matter of bringing your playing level up to the same leven as your current understanding. I gave you a first program.

Of course you can indulge in the question governing this discussion. You already answered it too: you started fairly late. Okay, that will prevent fast progress. Neverthelees, progress is still possible. All it takes is doing the right thing. Right now, I believe it is a maatter of concentration.

Reading this thread, I wanted to take a look at some of the games I played on the way to 1d and see if I could figure out if there's anything important missing here. When I looked at the games on the KGS archives (starting from 6k) they were nonsense, just nonstop fighting from beginning to end. This makes sense, since I didn't read books or go over pro games at all, I just played games and did tsumego. You can get away with murder at lower ranks, and book knowledge doesn't help you at all if you can't fight. If anyone else is interested, the account name is Aoirinban (expired account, so tick that option on the archives).

Having observed rank inflation for some time, and the fact that amateur shodan is something of a moving target, I kind of wish that it meant being in the top 5% of club players, which pretty much means players on the internet these days. Then most people would realize that they have no hope of becoming shodan, and would not worry about it.



Your question answers itself. Just about everyone who participates in this forum is intelligent and dedicated. Being considered a good player is relative, and means that you are better than the average intelligent and dedicated player, less than half of intelligent and dedicated players are good by that standard. Let's face it. People judge competence in fields like go relatively.



OC, we all have specific weaknesses, but in general there is nothing wrong with a weaker play other than not being a stronger player.



Oh, I think that most everyone who is interested in go and has a good teacher at age 7 can become a strong amateur in 10 years. But anyone can become shodan is bullshit.

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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You are right according to the dictionary definitions, but certainly kibitzing at bridge, which is where I first heard the term, merely refers to watching. A kibitzer who opened his mouth would be ejected from the playing area. Traditional go boards with legs have a large notch carved in the bottom, which I suppose helps prevent the wood from cracking. But I was told that it was there to hold the head of anyone who watched a go game and made comments during the game.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I'll be straightforward: I think you're a good go player. When I started getting into go, my rival was 8k. He was a god to me, and could give me 9 stones. I don't know your precise rank, but I'm pretty sure you could beat him. The rank comparison chart on senseis library puts KGS 5k at about the 50th percentile. So if you're around 5k, you're better than half of the players out there.

I've improved since I first started playing go, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a good go player. I understand your concern over the binary classification of dan vs. kyu. But it's a very vague classification, which changes, as others have noted.

Anyway, you already are a good go player.

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be immersed

Also, I do remember when I became 1d on KGS. It was an exciting time for me, and I enjoyed it. I think you will be excited when it happens to you... For a week or so. Then the novelty wears off, and it's the same feeling as being 5k - just a different number.

One idea for you: Play on WBaduk or Tygem. It's a bit easier to get to 1d there. You won't have to improve as much, but you'll "be 1d". After awhile, the novelty will wear off, and maybe 1d won't feel so special anymore. Or maybe you'll think you're cooler with 1d next to your name. Either way, maybe it's worth a shot.

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be immersed

@Bill - I heard the square spot was a place to paint the blood drained from the man who commented during a go match!

---

I've been fortunate to know a lot of very strong go players (ranging all the way up to pro) because of my community here. Those stuck at 4d feel exactly the same way as we are discussing now. They ask themselves why they can't get to 6d or 7d like the little kid that just beat them in a tournament. In fact, I had a friend say that they were going to give up on trying to improve because despite being dedicated to Go, they still get ridiculed and fail at solving tsumego.

"His father is a pro, but I saw his last game and he isn't that good. You'll win!"

My advice to this friend is the same here. In Go clubs, we need all shapes and sizes. We need kind, intellectual, funny people that represent our wonderful community and draw new people to it. We need the type of people who you want to sit with at a board with and have a conversation. Those bratty kids will grow out of their competitive spirit and either contribute later or disappear to other pursuits.

I would rather play 10 games with a 4k who laughs and contributes to a fun time than play a single game against someone who goes somber and falls into a foul mood when he or she is losing. Playing that second type is fun during serious tournament games where you can make that the goal.

The reason I want to work my way up to 4d AGA is not so that I can be seen as a more competent player. It's because I get a rush out of playing beautifully and the higher you get, the more clearly you can see what is happening in the game. Throughout my whole go playing "career", I remember the pride I felt when I looked at the games that I played and could honestly say to myself, "Job well done. I won my game well." You can too! Don't be ashamed of mistakes; make them and learn from them, even if you have to make the same mistake 20 times.

I save every game that I play in a folder and I order them sequentially. They are my little trophies Crazy tendencies...

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One important thing is continuity of practice. The vast majority of amateurs take huge breaks or are weekend warriors at best. I'm pretty sure I've walked and biked enough to have an iron man physique. The problem is that I did it over a lifetime, not in two years, and had a bit too much beer and pizza in between. Same for go, just substitute parenting and job for beer and pizza. (And it's not as if I quit the beer and pizza after getting a job or being a parent.)

I'm definitely under 1000 serious games, though, so no reason to complain.

On the contrary, I do feel stimulated. In fact, I am already trying to implement your advice of making it a goal to play without blundering. Doing this has made me more attentive during my play, and I do imagine that some good might come of it. Nonetheless, I've been stuck at KGS 5k for several years, and although I've made several forays into 4k territory, I haven't been able to play consistently at that level, which makes it seem not indulgent, not pessimistic but rather realistic to expect that I am one of those people who will most probably end their go playing days as a kyu. I fully concur with John when he says that "simply improving at go and so appreciating go better is sufficient reward for working harder at it," so I don't think not reaching some elusive rank is a big deal, but I am interested in why it is that way. For myself, I have identified a number of aspects of my play that keep me back, and you and others have also pointed out areas that I may not be paying enough attention to. I appreciate the suggestions and encouragement. Thanks.

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Patience, grasshopper.

+1 !
It's like saying that "anyone can play the violin".

Personally, I can beat any go champion or physicist.

...Of course I mean beating the physicist at go, and the go champion at solving physics problems

Check this out :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_Chun-shan

Shen Chun-shan, a 6-dan physicist.

Of course you are joking, but I know of some go 5-dan physicists

I think it's interesting that the only people who are really qualified about what it takes to reach shodan are those who have already achieved that rank, but they are uniquely unqualified to discuss what it is like to be stuck short of that goal. I think there may be a massive blind spot regarding the role that talent / aptitude has to play in reaching an amateur dan rank.

I'm reminded of when my father tried to teach me how to dive as a child. He was a natural athlete, particularly in endeavors that involved a knowledge of what your body is doing. My own sense of proprioception was rather stunted; coordinating my limbs was a massive effort, and I had no idea what my body was doing once my feet left the ground. For most of my childhood, I don't think my father could understand that my failures in sport weren't just due to lack of effort - my perception of the world was just different than his. (To be fair to my father, he never pressured me into pursuing sports when my own interest waned or suggested that my success in that area had any bearing on his love for me.) I recently read an article (that I can't seem to find now, though it may have been linked from this site) that conjectured that a significant portion of the history of philosophy was driven by an inability for men who thought in words to accept that some people really did see images in their mind when they described visualizing something (and vice versa).

There is far greater variance in the way that people's minds work than most of us give credit for in our daily lives. Some people may lack the skills that are required to play go at a high level, but if you have that skill you are unlikely to recognize it as something that isn't common to all people. This is particularly true since once you reach a certain rank, you're most likely to compare yourself to people of that rank. You'll all agree that it took some amount of effort to reach that level, so it's easy to conclude that it only takes effort because you've already left behind the people that didn't have the necessary aptitude. It's also easy to point to effort as the limiting factor because no matter how much someone gives, they could always (theoretically) give more.

I don't think, however, that it's easy to conclude why any particular person hasn't reached shodan. For some, perhaps talent really is holding them back. Others, surely, have a lack of effort. Still others are making the wrong kind of effort. Another group of people might suffer from some kind of mental block or physical limitation that keeps them from achieving their potential over the course of a game. Every person's story is a little different.

No matter what our current level or limitations, though, most of us still have room for improvement. Recognizing our own limitations and finding the workarounds is one of the keys to making continued progress. (I found ways to get around some of my physical limitations and have a lot of fun with sports when I got older.) I think this is one of the reasons the prologue to Relentless recommends focusing on your strengths when trying to improve.

As for your case in particular, daal, it seems that finding a teacher would be a good next step. You've tried other paths and they haven't worked; if you really want to reach shodan, why not take a different road? At the very least, a good teacher could help you distinguish between "wrong effort" and "wrong mental approach." No matter what course you choose, I hope you can always say, "I tried my best and found many hours of joy in the game."

There's two important concepts I'd like to bring up.

1. Neuroplasticity. Regardless of age, your brain continues to change. You're capable of adapting, even at an older age, to both new ideas and circumstances. As you age, there may be a slow-down of ability to progress, but that doesn't prevent progress, only speed of adaption. Perhaps, one lesson from this idea would be how to approach learning. There are other lessons from this, which I'm not qualified to comment on, but I think its an important concept to bring up.

2. Positive thinking. It's been shown, time and time again, that thinking you can't do something is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Those who are positive, who think they can, achieve much greater success. I think this relates to the neuroplasticity in a fashion, but the idea of "I'll never be able to do..." will lead to exactly that. Does this mean that if you think positively, that you can achieve shodan? No. It requires a lot more beyond that. But it does mean that if you think you can't, it's likely that you won't.

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I both agree and disagree with this

Even if someone is shodan, they may not have the knowledge and/or expertise to help or even understand someone that is stuck short of being shodan. However... they may.

There are many cases where the expertise is not there. Many go students that are stuck get go teachers, and the teacher is not able to help or understand their situation and get them unstuck. But sometimes, the dynamic is just right, and the teacher can help. For example, they may see patterns in the students' play, which could contribute to their being stuck. Maybe letting the student know this can free them from their current level.

Each situation is different. And being skilled at go doesn't automatically make you qualified to understand someone else's situation. But it's certainly possible that your experiences along the way to your current level may be helpful to others following a similar path.

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be immersed