KGO wrote:
It almost came to blows.
Looks like the only way to settle the argument.
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| Settle this argument for me http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4902 |
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| Author: | KGO [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Settle this argument for me |
Me and my roomate played a game and in review this position came up. My opinion is that it's favorable for white, while he smugly remarked he'd "take black all day". It almost came to blows. Please settle this argument for us. Do you prefer black or white on this board? The board: http://i.imgur.com/3SJZh.jpg EDIT: Black has sente. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
It is close, but if I had to choose, I'd take black. There are weak stones and cutting points all over, but the fights that evolve from those will tend to bump into black influence. So I regard black's influence as at least equal to white's territory. If black has the move and some unspecified komi, I'll take black. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
I was going to say white, but with the last move as marked I'm not sure I trust white to win this. It's still a game, but I feel like black has to work a little harder to make it happen. If white breaks in or lives it's pretty much over. It's a high-risk strategy for black. |
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| Author: | Solomon [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
White, because a 6k does not know how to manage a framework like that. |
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| Author: | KGO [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
Araban wrote: White, because a 6k does not know how to manage a framework like that. It might not make a difference, but he's a bit stronger than 6 kyu. More like 4 kyu. |
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| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
Although White has obviously ignored to answer in some funny situations (top right), I'd take White as well. Of course the framework is really big and it's Black's turn but Black can't enclose his center with one move. Point is, I would screw up as Black but I'm a lot more confident with White's position : D |
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| Author: | Laman [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
it is not a clear cut. i suppose white is objectively better with his cash and black's insecure moyo. but i would be personally tempted to take black, because i like moyos. and being 4k or 1d like me, you can easily make 10-15 point mistakes, so choose whatever fits you |
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| Author: | daal [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
KGO wrote: It almost came to blows. Looks like the only way to settle the argument.
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| Author: | KGO [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
daal wrote: KGO wrote: It almost came to blows. Looks like the only way to settle the argument. I believe I will be victorious in this regard. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
KGO wrote: I believe I will be victorious in this regard. Often if a fight starts, nobody wins; everybody loses. 
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| Author: | golem7 [ Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
It's difficult to judge because white has many solid points which is good. But since black has sente, white's right side looks a bit thin and I like to attack, I favor black starting with s14. If he can chase around white's right side group, he should be able to solidify a nice amount of territory on the top and lower side. ps: also white's last move has a negative feeling to it, very slow and passive, maybe better at n17? |
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| Author: | Jedo [ Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
Araban wrote: White, because a 6k does not know how to manage a framework like that. Doesn't it make more sense to judge the board objectively without knowledge of the players? |
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| Author: | Solomon [ Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
Jedo wrote: Araban wrote: White, because a 6k does not know how to manage a framework like that. Doesn't it make more sense to judge the board objectively without knowledge of the players? 1) Get too little; tries to turn it into territory and settle for much less than what he could get. The center is always bigger than it looks. 2) (Attempts to) get too much; tries unreasonably to kill an invading group when, if he had counted, he'd realize that sealing the group in and letting it live is good enough. It's a fine line to tread between #1 and #2, and I just feel a kyu-level player does not know how to walk straight on this line. Same sort of idea could apply for other things, not just Go. I'll use SC2 as an example since iirc you've played SC2 and could relate to this. Let's say someone posted a screenshot of an SC2 game, ZvP, he played with his buddy. In the screenshot I see the main battle is 30 stalkers with blink vs. 40 roaches, and whoever wins this engagement is pretty much going to win the game as the bases appear to be mined out. If the person posted that this was between two silver-league players and asked me who was winning, I'd say the Zerg is winning. Why? Because I know a silver-league player doesn't have the ability to blink micro well enough while macroing and warping in units to win the battle. But if I was told this was between two GM-league players, I'd say the Protoss is winning because I know he can blink well enough to take out 40 roaches easily while macroing/reinforcing. |
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| Author: | Loons [ Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
My advice is to never care at all about "winning" reviews. Just concentrate on clear mistakes you can address. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
Assuming no komi, or only 0.5 komi, put me in the toss-up camp.  Even though I like outside thickness, this position looks good for White to me. Black has given up too much for his thickness, and has weaknesses. However, White has erred by not playing at 1 with sente.  is huge, giving the edge back to Black. Now I think that White has to dive into Black's sphere of influence, do or die.
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| Author: | Tommie [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
KGO wrote: Me and my roomate played a game and in review this position came up. My opinion is that it's favorable for white, while he smugly remarked he'd "take black all day". It almost came to blows. Please settle this argument for us. Do you prefer black or white on this board? The board: http://i.imgur.com/3SJZh.jpg EDIT: Black has sente. I prefer Black and had to settle first the weak point on the upper side with , A or B. (this determines the F/G-, resp. A- aji)White's points are limited in the z- and y-areas (the upper right corner is not (yet) white territory). Black's points are vulnerable in the q-area. And ... the only answer is retrieved in playing it out (getting several results? = Monte Carlo method) |
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| Author: | entropi [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
With so many unfinished shapes and leakages, I would be surprised if black can make more than 50 points out of that framework. Whites upper left territory alone is about 40 points, plus the lower right territory, plus something in the upper side (as an extension to upper left), plus something on the right side. On the other hand, black has the lower left, but if for turning it into real territory, I suppose he has to give white some power towards the centre, which can then be used for further reducing the centre. I think the faith of white's 4-4 stone in the lower left corner will be the key for this game. As white, I would immediately extend it towards the centre. But that was a sdk comment which shouldn't be taken seriously anyway
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| Author: | oren [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Settle this argument for me |
Araban wrote: In a lot of cases, yeah. However I feel this is a situation where knowledge of the players' strength does play a role due to the difficulty of properly handling a moyo. However, if it's simply worded as would you rather be black or white, it's a lot simpler.
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