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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:15 pm 
Oza

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leonprimrose wrote:
It usually works out like this:

I decide to start working on my Go and practicing hard. Playing regular games and doing lots of tsumego as well as reading books on it.

I lose some games at first when I'm getting back into it but then I start winning and doing well enough to be satisfied. Maybe 40-60% win ratio. Sometimes better than others. Losing happens and I brush it off and keep going.

At some point during this, usually a couple months into my study, I start losing. At first I brush it off as a bad streak. But it keeps going and I stop winning altogether. I try to get into each game calmly and remind myself that I'm just trying to get better.

After a while of this I start getting frustrated and eventually I step away from Go in order to distance myself from the frustration.

Rinse.

Repeat.

I've been stuck at about mid to weak SDK strength for a while now and I just want to improve. Anyone else go through this? Any thoughts on dealing with it and moving forward so I just don't continue looping like this?


Sounds like you are dwelling too much on the unimportant things. Who cares whether you win or lose if you are learning something new from the game? It takes time to digest new information. Just relax, have fun, try to learn something new from each game, and everything else will take care of itself.

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #22 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:03 am 
Oza
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hl782 wrote:
However, a friend of mine just recently told me - "There is absolutely no excuses for losing". If you keep telling yourself that "Oh i just lost because of a stupid mistake", then you wont improve. If you review with stronger players and vow not to make that mistake in the future, then you will improve. no matter what. I think a good habit is to find 3 mistakes in each game, and learn from those to not make those mistakes ever again.


Not just 3 mistakes, but the 3 biggest mistakes. The ones that affected the outcome of the game. And indeed, don't skip the "silly blunders" because it is precisely the silly blunders you want to get rid of first. Why did you make them? Time pressure, lack of concentration (alcohol, music, social networks ...)? Tackle those root causes first.

hl782 wrote:
I think a good way to keep this in check is to limit the number of quality games you play in a day.


Correct. Playing junk games is a fast lane to frustration.

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #23 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:39 pm 
Lives with ko

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a few questions.

1. what are your goals in go? is it to improve or are you happy just playing?

2. what is your general attitude going into the game, are you excited to play go or are you doing it just to play a game.

after you answer them a better response can be given

however,

you do realize that at your proper rank and at a proper sample size, you will be winning half the time and losing half the time right? compounded with that there are still possible swings in terms of just running into players who might be better in that one area. it just happens.

i'd say just take a break and play when you want to. yes losses suck, but you move on. there is no one loss in Go that should make you want to quit Go. 10 games from now you'll probably forget all about that game anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #24 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:43 pm 
Lives in sente

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All the above advice is good. If you're playing online, it can also be helpful to play on different servers. Switching to a different server for a few games can take some of the pressure off of your mounting losing streak, and it can also expose you to a different style of play that either allows you to win a few games or makes some of your strengths / weaknesses more clear.

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #25 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:48 pm 
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when I was a child, my brother and I used to play cards with my father, and I would lose more often than not, usually resulting in tears. It garnered me the nickname "the onion king".


This post by leichtloeslich was liked by: globulon
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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #26 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:18 pm 
Oza

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Losses are nothing to be ashamed of. Everybody loses. In fact, somebody has to lose.

It doesn't mean you're any weaker or have lost any skill or ability. It usually just means your opponent made fewer mistakes than you did. I really hate rating systems that demote based on loses, because you are not worse than you were before. (I realize there are legitimate reasons for demoting, but not usually to the degree most systems use). In fact, its entirely possible that you are gaining skill, even though you're still losing.

I used to play a guy at work every day, and because I was so much stronger than he was, he would always lose (he would take handicap, but always at least one less than he actually needed). He was constantly improving and getting stronger, even though he always lost. In the years since, he's eventually caught up and passed me by.

I like to compare it with baseball batting averages. A really good batting average, is still a very low percentage, and strikes out more than they hit.

I also used to run a lot of high level tournaments. We would have the top 8 to 16 players in the country. With Swiss pairing, one player was not going to win any games -- at all. That doesn't mean they are a weak player... they are still among the top players in the country. In a win-loss competition, someone has to lose. No need to feel bad about it (easier said than done, I realize).

And, you can usually learn far more from a loss, than you can from a win. You are ripe for improvement.

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #27 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:37 pm 
Dies in gote

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Thank all of you for the kind words and helpful advice :) I played a few since I posted this and lost. Tonight however, I decided to say screw it and had a drink before playing. Loosened me up just enough. I felt like myself in game again. I wasn't just straight up disappointed by my play. Of course I made mistakes. But I had fun and played like I was before the losing streak. When I was playing before I wasn't focused on winning. I was focused on playing. I have to remember to get the end result out of my head as I play. I think that's part of it. After a single game I can't say I'm back but it sure feels good lol

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #28 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:05 pm 
Judan

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leonprimrose, no profanity please.

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #29 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:02 am 
Gosei

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When we study and improve it isn't a one-way increase, more like two steps forward, one step backward. The step backwards might involve more losses than we like. Often when we learn new ideas or techniques we haven't completely absorbed the new knowledge and, when we try to use it in a game, we lose. If we are seriously studying we are improving whether we win or lose. Personally I think focusing on how many games we lose or focusing on trying to increase our ratings is asking for frustration. I prefer to focus on smaller scale steps in improvement. Did I handle my opponent's moyo well even though I lost the game because of a bad mistake in the late middle game? Congratulate yourself for your success with that moyo. Do this kind of thinking about all the small scale parts of playing good go rather than whether you are winning or losing or your rating is going up.

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #30 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:45 pm 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
leonprimrose, no profanity please.


Profanity?

BTW, this site is censored. Watch this.

"F!!k a detritus p!ss."

-- from Candy

Hmmmm. It is not as censored as I thought. I went back and censored myself.

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Post #31 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:51 pm 
Honinbo
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FCUK

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #32 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:42 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:

hl782 wrote:
I think a good way to keep this in check is to limit the number of quality games you play in a day.


Correct. Playing junk games is a fast lane to frustration.


Yeah I only play 1 or 2 games a day at most

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #33 Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:30 am 
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One thing that came to mind for me is the idea of expectations.

I often find that my attitude makes a big difference. If I expect to win a game, I will very often lose it. I start to think about the game in the wrong way, making wrong assumptions about the values of my moves and the values of my opponents moves.

This can stem from simply a rank difference. But in my case it can also stem from a feeling of "virtuousness" from my study. That is sometimes, when I study, I start to get a mentality that I deserve to win because of it, and that really I am better than my rating, and that I should be beating these players. When I am in this mode, I often don't put in as much effort into reading out consequences of things, just feeling that I am automatically better in a given situation.

When I go down that road, it can be very frustrating to lose.

Maybe in your case such a feeling could stem from your previous record.

I would also like to second the people who talk about improving as "two steps forward, one step back" process. I also have had the experience of playing quite well for a time, then sliding back. I have also been told repeatedly that often when we learn stuff in a game like this it can actually temporarily set us back. (Think of the proverb "learn joseki and lose two stones". The idea is that new ideas will often be implemented wrongly. This is a valuable and important part of the process, because properly implementing the idea (concept or whatever) will eventually result in an improvement, but at first it is throwing off your game. You just have to go through it.

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #34 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:21 pm 
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globulon wrote:
One thing that came to mind for me is the idea of expectations.

I often find that my attitude makes a big difference. If I expect to win a game, I will very often lose it. I start to think about the game in the wrong way, making wrong assumptions about the values of my moves and the values of my opponents moves.


I think this can be generalized. Anything that causes me to approach a game clouded with emotion or expectation is a challenge to playing my best.

Focusing on winning is a problem.
Focusing on losing is a problem.
Focusing on matching how quickly my opponent responds is a problem.
Focusing on my irritation at how long my opponent takes to respond is a problem.
Focusing on the conversation or noise in the next room is a problem.
...and so on

When I get into a losing streak, I find that I usually have too much on my mind during the past few weeks, or too much emotional expectation around the game itself. Go requires good reading skills, and these skills get disturbed easily when we are distracted. Figuring out how to remove the distractions & just enjoy the process of reading & playing helps break me out of any funk.

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 Post subject: Re: How to deal with losses
Post #35 Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:44 am 
Dies in gote

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The way to become good at Go is to pay a professional coach to give you lessons ...

Or get a friend to teach you some basics


Cai GengYang
gengyangcai@gmail.com
KGS : Caigy 3dan

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