What is the best opening to play an influence game? And is the follow up too difficult for me?

A 9 stone handicap?

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

High stones give influence: 4th and 5th line. Here are a few ideas if you need inspiration

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[go]$$B Sanrensei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B A different San ren sei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Wang Chenxing's opening
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Gan Siyang's opening
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Maybe more seriously, you can play any kind of opening with an eye towards developing influence, and you probably should. You might not call an opening like this influence oriented:

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[go]$$B Micro chinese
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But you can still play it in a way that makes influence.

Go seigen's version of the best sanrensei:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B High Chinese
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If you REALLY want influence, start with moves on the 6th to 10th lines. However, as a beginner, you can just start with the 4-5 stone.

Thanks for all of the different openings! I've been wanting to play a more influence-based game!

To be honest, it's not a good idea for player of your strength to play an influence oriented game. The reason is that you have to be very strong at attacking and killing. When your opponent decides to invade or reduce your moyo, if you cannot attack him and either A) kill him or B) make profit then you will invariably be behind on territory. You might find that you get better results in your games if you play for solid points rather than influence.

But go back to Dr. Straw's response.

The question was "how to learn about using influence" and that may indeed be by playing high handicap games against a strong enough opponent. Not necessarily just nine stones, but anything between nine and four.

Handicap stones don't actually give any real territory. What they give is an advantage in influence. OK, to advance to a lower number of stones you have to learn to take advantage of the influence provided by the number you are currently at.

I beg to differ. The reason is that his opponents will be very weak at reducing, invading, and living. More beginners err by playing for territory than by playing for influence. (Edit: Also, they will often play too slowly, enabling an influence player to take the lead.) It is never too early to learn how to use influence.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

You make an interesting point, but, what you fail to take into account is that DDKs are weak at Go in general. Just because his opponent plays slowly, who's to say he'll recognize those moves as slow and play a big one. DDKs will constantly follow you around the board, and when they do tenuki there's usually some weakness left behind in their position. And DDKs are usually just as bad at attacking as they are at reducing, invading, and living. I would also like to say that there's nothing wrong with him playing an influence oriented game if he wants to, but it is a risky strategy for all go players, not just DDKs.

It seems to me that this is precisely what Bill has taken into account. The way I read the quote is that the underlying assumption is that Black is mainly concerned with trying to win. Bill's assumption, which I think is the right one, is that the DDK should be mainly concerned with trying to learn, and for that using the influence of handicap stones is quite possibly the best way forward. Rather than "influence" think of "connectedness". The handicap stones are relatively easy to connect, especially at high handicaps, and that gives the floundering weak player something to work with in terms of overall perception of the board. Grasping that overall perception for the first time may be what gets rid of the first D in DDK. Grasping that handicap stones are there to help you learn and not to win will get rid of the second D.

I agree with you John, but I was under the impression we were talking about openings in even games, not handicap ones.

That is precisely the point I am making. At a high level you cannot say that playing for influence is better or worse than playing for territory. Why should it be better to play for territory at a low level?

Perhaps playing for territory is easier for DDKs to understand. My impression is that DDKs tend to play for territory, probably for that reason. It does not follow that DDKs who play for influence should play for territory instead. There is a process of self selection here. DDKs who play for influence do so because that makes sense to them, it is easier for them to understand.




Slow play is in general territory oriented play. Influence players, even DDKs, tend to develop quickly.



As an influence oriented DDK I did not follow my opponents around the board. I did leave weaknesses behind, and I usually paid the price. C'est la vie.

Edit: Another point, related to leaving weaknesses behind, is that of sacrifice. Sacrifice usually produces influence, and an influence player will not shy away from sacrificing stones. Grabbing stones is a frequent mistake of DDKs, one which a DDK who plays for influence can take advantage of. When I left weaknesses behind as a DDK, and those weaknesses were attacked, I often played to sacrifice some stones (preferably with sente).

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

When I was a ddk who played for influence, I had an Ippoji style.

John, I do think that DDKs should be more concerned with learning than with winning, and I do think that playing for influence is a good way to learn. When I see two DDKs patiently and politely plodding along, each adding to their secure territory two space extension by two space extension, I wonder how they are ever going to learn anything. But I also think that playing for influence is just as good a strategy when DDK faces DDK as when dan faces dan.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I think there may be a misapprehension in the question, actually. As far as I can see, it is a "good idea" to play an influence-oriented game at the ama 3 dan to 4 dan level. There is a certain "muscular" style at that level which is kind of normal, and possibly what gets you up from the 1 dan to 2 dan level. It may or may not be based on regulation influence-oriented openings from the pro repertoire.

I doubt whether getting to 1 dan depends on playing that kind of go. "Balance" is more likely the universal required.

I find it hard to believe that DDKs play for moyos and influence because it's easier for them to understand than other play styles. DDKs who play for influence do so because the idea of having a big moyo is more appealing to them than trying to win the game through other means. It's difficult to say that they really understand the purpose of moyos since most DDKs will do things like make territory with thickness.

I'm not disagreeing with what you said about influence being gained through sacrifice or anything like that. I completely agree with you on the fact that influence should be gained naturally during the course of a game. All I'm saying is that playing for moyos from the start of the game is not the best way for a weaker player to play the game or for them to get stronger. There's not a pro that I've talked to or heard of who says that that is a good strategy for learning, getting stronger, or winning games. If the pros don't like it, that's usually good enough for me.

It sounds like a double standard. Influence players have to "really understand" the purpose of moyos. Well, we don't expect DDKs to really understand much of anything. They learn and grow in understanding.

As for most DDKs trying to make territory with thickness, most DDKs are territory oriented. What about DDKs who are influence oriented? (In my case, I am sure that I tried to use thickness to attack, because I was always attacking. It had nothing to do with thickness per se.)



Here is where we plainly differ. All I am saying is that if a DDK is inclined to play for influence over territory, we have no reason to discourage them. (IMO, opening on tengen is an error. However, it is a 1 kyu or shodan level error, not a DDK level error. A DDK who makes only shodan level errors will not stay a DDK for long.) I do not believe that one size fits all. There is a saying that there are 360° in the martial arts. I think that the same is true for go.



Well, I am unaware of a pro who says that influence oriented DDKs should switch to territory orientation. Or the other way around. And I would doubt one who did. There has been very little research on go pedagogy. One thing I do know is that there are many skills involved in playing good go. It seems to me that different approaches lend themselves to developing different skills, and that it is generally a good idea not to stick to any style or approach while learning.

Also, I do recall comments in a go magazine by some pros that a young player showed promise because he had an appreciation of the center. I don't think that you develop that appreciation by playing for territory.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

The reason I brought up pros not liking influence oriented openings (e.g. like the sanrensei) is because they always say that to play an influence oriented opening you must be extremely confident in your attacking skills. I spoke with a Japanese professional named Ho Yu (I may have misspelled that) recently at the US go congress in NYC about a subject pretty similar to this and he cautioned against playing influence oriented openings for that very reason. I didn't include my earlier comment about professional players' opinions because I thought it had anything to do with go pedagogy. I did include it because it shows that the strongest go players in the world (i.e. professionals) view influence oriented openings as a pretty risky strategy. Influence oriented go might work well for DDKs, but as you get stronger you can't always expect your opponents to suck at invading, reducing, and living. You can't count on them making heavy shapes or two weak groups to attack.

I don't disagree with what you said about different approaches teaching you different things about go, but all I've been doing is trying to inform the original poster of the thread of the demerits of this particular approach to go. Given that the poster's rank does state DDK, he or she might not be fully aware of some of those demerits.

By the way, can you elaborate on your example with the go magazine? It's a little hard to take seriously since it just says vague things like "a go magazine" "some pros" and "a young player". Just because this young player has an appreciation or love of the center doesn't necessarily mean that he would show promise, so I'm assuming there was more to the article.

I think it's important to remember that go is a game where the players take turns. As such, it's really hard to say: I will play for territory (or influence). Rather, our opponents present opportunities and it is our job to judge whether they are real chances (or tricks) and if they are real, how best to take advantage of them.

When playing white in high handicap games, sometimes I would advise my opponent: "you do realize that I can't win unless you help me." This is sometimes taken as a joke, but really it's not. When reviewing such a game, I will point out how heavily I had to rely on black's thank-you moves to get anywhere.

So maybe understand that you are giving your opponent a choice such that you'll be resourceful taking is left for you.

If you play a 4-4 point, is that influence? Not yet. What becomes of it depends as much on white's play as black's.