I think tewari requires a sane move order, not an arbitrary move order. In your second diagram 3-5-7 are kind of "what". In the game black answered the white stone three times : The cost was that that white stone became a terrible move.

Edit: Because 3 would be played at 8 in your crazy move order.

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+10086

You need to make sure the order being used for tewari is reasonable for at least one side, otherwise you just have a bunch of bad moves in a way that does not allow for you to conclude what the net result is. Moves 5, 7, and 8 are all ridiculous. If white had 8 somewhere else (e.g. something on the top or right side) then you can conclude that black played badly (since the only ridiculous moves were all from black).

IMO 5 and 7 are normal moves for black creating his own moyo and bribing white to invade somewhere, just 8 would be a (very) bad move (we talk about the tewari-scenario here). That would show that tewari doesn't work, because 8 was certainly not a bad move in the original game unlike in the tewari analysis. So it would follow that moves that seem bad in tewari are not necessarily bad....

5 and 7 are... normal moves... I think it more shows that your judgement doesn't work. If 5 and 7 are normal moves, then it should mean that the below result should be even. What do you think?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 5 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Considering that Black has sente, yes, I think it's even, maybe even favourable for Black. But that doesn't say much for I am too weak to give a judgement here, maybe some high dan can tell....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 7 , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Can we use this as a reference? It doesn't have a dodgy missing move in the top right which simplifies black's moyo. I think white is better here though. How is what better or worse for whom than this?

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I thought the discussion centered around tewari of the position with a white wedge on the right? If black doesn't have to respond to it and deal with the stone, it's a very different position. I certainly feel black is much better off in this position than in the previous one, but it still feels cramped to me, and feels really slow.

A brief history of the recent conversation :

Pippen suggested this tewari (involving ignoring a wedge approach)



Illluck and I criticized the move order for not being good, which Pippen disagreed with.

I suggested what I felt was a preferable set of moves compared to Pippen's tewari moves (this is more or less the whole point of tewari right, whether one would have preferred to play differently).

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See my previous post. Any new ideas/opinions?