Knotwilg wrote:
Just imagine the stronger players also vow never to play DDK.
SDKs are not going to pick up bad habits from DDKs.
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| The barrier between DDK and SDK. http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12069 |
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| Author: | Charles Matthews [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
jdl wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Remember my proverb, When in doubt, tenuki. If you spray enough weak groups all over the board, white can't possibly attack them all. On a scale of, say, 0 to 5, tenuki can take any value. Those who "follow the opponent" around must be assuming that it takes values like 2 or below. If it takes the value 4, and the punishing move locally takes the value 5, then at least you are two plays into a different plan. "After every disaster you have sente", a proverb as dubious as most of them. But at least you have morphed the game, and presumably have some aji left. (No aji is a fairly good indicator that you should not play tenuki.) If what you leave behind is a weak group, this is more like leaving interesting possibilities for the opponent. Not recommended in general. And not to be too solemn about the whole business, it isn't usually necessary to kill all the weak groups if you just want to win ... I do get concerned that these advice threads become incoherent, what with the introduction of pet theories, |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
As another take on this, if you are at 12k, there are many different things to work on. Certainly none of your go skills are of professional level. When you are 8k, there will be many different things to work on. Certainly none of your go skills will be professional level, though they may be incrementally better than they were at 12k. There is no barrier in between them. There's no line like "a 9k must be able to read X moves ahead" or anything. Any barrier that's there is in your own mind. If you are playing a 10k player, they will make numerous mistakes. Their moves are, for the most part, crap. I'm significantly stronger than this, and my moves are still mostly crap moves. There's nothing special about their play. If you want to be an SDK, all you have to do is not play DDK moves. When you move, think about the move and ask yourself, is this what a 9k player would play? What a 7k player would play? What a stronger player would play? Or is it a DDK move? If it is, what would a stronger player play? Would they let their opponent get away with that? Would they ignore it, because your opponents move is too small? Don't chicken out. Fight to make your narrative of the game THE narrative of the game, because your opponent's narrative is most likely wrong. Play the move you think a stronger player would play, instead, and see how far it takes you before you decide that there's something fundamentally wrong with your skills. |
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| Author: | jdl [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Charles Matthews wrote: jdl wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Remember my proverb, When in doubt, tenuki. If you spray enough weak groups all over the board, white can't possibly attack them all. ... I do get concerned that these advice threads become incoherent, what with the introduction of pet theories, Or with the introduction of jokes, obvious as they may be to most. |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Charles Matthews wrote: I do get concerned that these advice threads become incoherent, what with the introduction of pet theories, We should have some kind of forum where we can aggregate the advice given and clear it of signature, so that it becomes coherent and supported by a community, rather than a compound of individual contributions of equal weight. Now wait a second ... |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
The following is a list of books that I've been through: Go: A Complete Introduction to the Game by Richard Bozulich Learn to play Go volume II: The way of the Moving Horse by Janice Kim Double Digit Kyu Games by Neil Moffatt How Not to Play Go by Yuan Zhou Mastering the Basics Volume 5: The Basics of Go Strategy by Richard Bozulich Fundamental Principles of Go by Yilun Yang 38 Basic Josekis by James Davies In the Beginning by Ikuro Ishigure Attack and Defense by James Davies The Direction of Play by Takeo Kajiwara |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Joelnelsonb, see my answer in the appropriate forum: viewtopic.php?p=190979#p190979 |
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| Author: | Charles Matthews [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Joelnelsonb wrote: The following is a list of books that I've been through: Go: A Complete Introduction to the Game by Richard Bozulich Learn to play Go volume II: The way of the Moving Horse by Janice Kim Double Digit Kyu Games by Neil Moffatt How Not to Play Go by Yuan Zhou Mastering the Basics Volume 5: The Basics of Go Strategy by Richard Bozulich Fundamental Principles of Go by Yilun Yang 38 Basic Josekis by James Davies In the Beginning by Ikuro Ishigure Attack and Defense by James Davies The Direction of Play by Takeo Kajiwara I don't know all of these. It is fairly obvious to me that you should not do much reading in "38 Basic" or the Kajiwara book, until you are about 5 kyu. You should read some of "Tesuji" by Davies in depth, instead. General philosophy: anyone who is improving quickly can read what they like. Anyone on a plateau needs a special diet to sort out some things that are holding them back, rather than being an omnivore. And actually, much the same goes for taking advice from this sort of forum. |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Thank you for the responses. I've just purchased "Tesuji" from Apple Go Books and will look into the other two books recommended by RobertJasiek once I've found a good place to purchase them from. Thanks again! |
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| Author: | oren [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Joelnelsonb wrote: Thank you for the responses. I've just purchased "Tesuji" from Apple Go Books and will look into the other two books recommended by RobertJasiek once I've found a good place to purchase them from. Thanks again! You can order straight from Jasiek. http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/ |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
So tell me what you think: I've decided (among reading more of the proper material for my level and doing more life and death) that I'm going to quit playing DDKs. Even if I never win a game for a long time, I want to always play against better players until I can hang with them. Before, I would set my challenges to be open to anyone a little lower and a little higher than my current rank. This means that if I played poorly for a while and dropped a few kyus, I would adjust the rank restriction accordingly and play weaker players until I got back up. I'm wondering if the community thinks this will be productive or if maybe there's something to be said about playing both stronger and weaker players. |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Just imagine the stronger players also vow never to play DDK. |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Knotwilg wrote: Just imagine the stronger players also vow never to play DDK. They don't seem to have a problem with it. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Knotwilg wrote: Just imagine the stronger players also vow never to play DDK. SDKs are not going to pick up bad habits from DDKs.
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| Author: | oren [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Joelnelsonb wrote: So tell me what you think: I've decided (among reading more of the proper material for my level and doing more life and death) that I'm going to quit playing DDKs. Even if I never win a game for a long time, I want to always play against better players until I can hang with them. Before, I would set my challenges to be open to anyone a little lower and a little higher than my current rank. This means that if I played poorly for a while and dropped a few kyus, I would adjust the rank restriction accordingly and play weaker players until I got back up. I'm wondering if the community thinks this will be productive or if maybe there's something to be said about playing both stronger and weaker players. Play stronger players when you can and play equal when you can't. |
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| Author: | cyndane [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
It's important to play both stronger and weaker players in order to improve. Stronger players are better at punishing your mistakes, but they are better at hiding their weaknesses. Playing weaker players allows you to see their weaknesses very clearly. Try playing strong opponents and then going back to weaker players, you will be surprised at the differences you see. Alternating like this you can build skills into your repertoire and become a better player. |
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
oren wrote: Play stronger players when you can and play equal when you can't. Absolutely essential that everyone does this otherwise no one will improve. |
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| Author: | schawipp [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Quote: [...] I want to always play against better players until I can hang with them [...] If you do that on KGS you will eventually get a '~' besides your nickname in the game request window. With a '~' it might get more difficult getting games against stronger players. Also consider, if every player wants to play only stronger players, there won't be any games at all... 
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| Author: | xed_over [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
schawipp wrote: Also consider, if every player wants to play only stronger players, there won't be any games at all... That's just a stupid logical fallacy. |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
xed_over wrote: schawipp wrote: Also consider, if every player wants to play only stronger players, there won't be any games at all... That's just a stupid logical fallacy. It's a logical truth. It might be a practical fallacy. |
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| Author: | schawipp [ Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK. |
Knotwilg wrote: It's a logical truth. It might be a practical fallacy. Could is just be (poorly marked, I know...) irony? On a more serious note I know some players who play very often stronger players with handycap. In those games they play like around 8k while on tournaments in even games they are rather playing like 10k. Thus, playing only stronger opponents might be too single-sided but I really don't know... |
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