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 Post subject: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #1 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:10 am 
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hi all,

since march 2011 I`ve studied the kiseido`s opening, L&D and the tesuji book.
right now I study kiseido`s attack n defense.

but since 2 months (since I began to study the L&D book) I`m stuck at 11k KGS and don`t get any stronger. tesuji helped me to get stronger, the L&D book didn`t. of course my groups now rarely die but strangely this fact didn`t really improved my rank. at least my rank doens`t decrease either (I play around 8 rated games per week). which means, I am really stuck here.

I am trying to get the best out of the defense n attack book (just started to study it) but I`m not sure if it really will help me to get stronger.

are there any book recommendations for my level and reading background?

thank you :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #2 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:51 am 
Gosei
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Attack and defense is a really good book, so you can't go bad with it.

I also recommend posting a close game in the Game Analysis subforum, so we can have a look at it and give some specific advice.

Besides trying that, improvement at Go doesn't follow straight away from study. Sometimes things have to click before you improve. That's the most frustrating part about it. Try to focus on enjoying the game, if it becomes frustrating.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #3 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:55 am 
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Maybe Kageyama's fundamentals of Go book would be a good read for you since it seems to be a thinking problem holding you back. (I am just guessing, since you say your groups rarely die so the problem isn't Life and death but rather fundamental thinking about the game). I can also recommend graded go problems for beginners volume 2-3 for your level, maybe vol 1 aswell I think. They have Life and death, tesuji, opening and endgame problems with answers and they helped me alot.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #4 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:19 am 
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Firstly, the Elementary Go Series volume Life and Death isn't that great IMO (the OOP book all about life and death is better) - I doubt knowing the complexities of the carpenter square, or the J+1 group is making a big difference right now. Also, if your groups rarely die it could mean you're being too timid. Anyway, I would guess that for you (and me) to improve the best way is to develop our reading abilities - are you reading out the situations - not just life and death parts of the game.

Also, two months isn't that long to be stuck at any rank.

p.s. I like Cho Hun-hyeon's Lectures on go techniques volumes 1&2 a lot.

p.p.s. sometimes changing the style of games can help - play some games on DGS, or on KGS if you always play slow games, play blitz.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #5 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:42 am 
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Like CnP said, "Life and Death" is more of a book which explains certain (among others) corner positions and variation of those. It's therefore more of a dictionary, you can read it when you really want to dig into a position but personally I don't think it fits training your reading respectively life and death in general - it's too text-heavy.

At your level I think "Attack and Defense" is great. Take your time with it and you will not need any other textbook until high SDK- or Dan-level.

As for problem books, I would suggest reading/solving "Get Strong at Tesuji" (very good book for your middlegame), "One Thousand and One Life-and-Death Problems" (raw reading drills) and "Graded Go Problems For Beginners Vol. 3" (has opening, middlegame, endgame, seki, ko, capturing races, Life-and-Death and Tesuji problems - if you haven't solved the earlier two volumes, I'd start witht those).

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #6 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:25 am 
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1) Post a game for review.
2) How many games have you played on KGS? 100 yet?

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #7 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:27 am 
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Post a game here for review :)

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #8 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:37 am 
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1. Agree with others that you should post a game for review
2. Agree that to improve, playing (losing? :) ) more games is more important than reading books
3. Partially agree that Davies' L&D is a bit more dictionary-like than Davies' Tesuji. The real problem, though, is that the demands the L&D book makes on your ability to read several moves ahead is *much* higher than the Tesuji book. I still can't solve many of the problems in the L&D book.
4. Partially agree on Attack & Defense and Lessons in the Fundamentals; those are both good books, but at this point you shouldn't feel like your reading books is the best way to improve, or that immediate improvement is the best reason to read books.
5. No on has mentioned tsumego (life and death) problems. Have you done any of these? Are you planning to do any?


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #9 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:57 am 
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Kansai-ben wrote:
hi all,

since march 2011 I`ve studied the kiseido`s opening, L&D and the tesuji book.
right now I study kiseido`s attack n defense.

but since 2 months (since I began to study the L&D book) I`m stuck at 11k KGS and don`t get any stronger. tesuji helped me to get stronger, the L&D book didn`t. of course my groups now rarely die but strangely this fact didn`t really improved my rank. at least my rank doens`t decrease either (I play around 8 rated games per week). which means, I am really stuck here.

I am trying to get the best out of the defense n attack book (just started to study it) but I`m not sure if it really will help me to get stronger.

are there any book recommendations for my level and reading background?

thank you :bow:


If book larnin' didn't help much, maybe it's not the best thing for you right now. It's difficult to diagnose your game at a distance. Fortunately you live in Osaka. Why not go to the Ki-in or local go club and get a lesson?

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #10 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Two months is not being stuck. Even if you play a lot you may still need time to digest all that you have learned. Don't worry about it for now.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #11 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:36 pm 
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When people first start solving a lot of problems (especially life and death) it's not uncommon to go through a phase where you treat every situation as a localised problem where the opponent must be crushed.

It's good to apply your new found skills in tesuji and reading ahead, but you need to loosen up so it doesn't retard your game. Attack and Defense will help with that, but try to spend more time playing and less time reading books for while, until you learn how to apply what you've read properly.

Try some new, creative ideas and push yourself to play moves you wouldn't have before. Is a two space extension good enough, maybe three spaces is better? Is a one space jump the best you can do? Maybe the knight's move or a longer move is better? Do you have to respond to that move? Can you respond indirectly or ignore it completely? Is there a bigger move elsewhere? Your improved reading ability should give you the strength to start thinking like this, but it needs to be applied in this way rather than just in contact fighting and local skirmishes.

It's quite common for this to happen and it's natural. You're still learning all the time, you just need some time to consolidate things, so stop worrying and relax. One day you'll laugh that you even worried about this at all :).

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #12 Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:19 am 
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hi all!

thank you very much for your comments.

i attached a game, i hope you can see it?

Bill Spight wrote:
Fortunately you live in Osaka. Why not go to the Ki-in or local go club and get a lesson?


:D i got the same idea. but i dropped it immedeately after i saw their prices only for participating their regular club gaming. after that, i didn`t dare to ask how much a 1-to-1 lesson was. maybe I`ll do this when I`m stronger. but I think at my level I can still improve myself. ;-)

I found a cheap local club as well (EUR 10,--/evening without teacher, 10 people on 5m²) but it takes me 45 mins to commute there, so I`ve never been there actually. japan`s cities are huge and funny. but they have their disadvantages. :-?


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #13 Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:15 am 
Oza
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If you quote my post you'll see how to make the diagram appear :)


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #14 Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:34 am 
Gosei
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Please understand that these are only my feeling about the moves, just to give some help:

22 - I much prefer G15 or thereabouts. Stay connected.

32 - this turn is huge. white has to attend to two groups now.

36 - 2nd time to play this shape: sometimes called an armpit hit because your opponent gets a free shoulder hit. Maybe g3, or a probe around d3? g3 is stable and threatens the slide to e2, undercutting black's shape.

40 - left side seems much bigger!

45 - notice now that black has made solid territory on both sides, and white's position is still low and vulnerable.

46 - what is this move supposed to do? I like f15 or m15 on the top, or g5 to help the bottom.

49 - black should continue with g5 first, sealing white in.

68 - a big point

108+ - black gives you three of these moves in a row! very nice :)

120 - this move is about 1 point. S18, s2, b17 are all much bigger.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #15 Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:31 am 
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Just a samll comment:

130: You should not answer this, white's move is gote.
You ave bigger plays then T3, for example T18.

Anyway I don't think you will be a 11kyu much longer :tmbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #16 Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:59 am 
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thank you all again.

are there any recommendations where i should focus to improveme after you saw the game?

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #17 Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:24 pm 
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I looked at it, but I couldn't work out if you were black or white. Did you say somewhere and I'm just not seeing it? Sorry if I'm missing the obvious. Based on the title of the thread, I can only guess that you're black?

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #18 Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:14 am 
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Yep, he's Emi : )

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #19 Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:40 pm 
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Hi Kansai-ben,

Found this interesting thread - "Stuck at 12 kyu" from last year (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1540). I especially like Magicwand's post:
Magicwand wrote:
in my opinion rank reflect the level of understanding of the game.
it will take time for them to gain deeper reading ability and that might be why they plateau.
for example: you can achieve 12 kyu by avoiding getting killed.
but for you to pass that level you have to understand what thickness and influence does.
once you understand thickness and influence you might be stucked at 1k.
once you understand the flow of the game you can pass 1k~1d level.
after that every dan level is a plateau for me. :)
Cheers
tezza

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 11k KGS
Post #20 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:14 am 
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tezza wrote:
Hi Kansai-ben,

Found this interesting thread - "Stuck at 12 kyu" from last year (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1540). I especially like Magicwand's post:
Magicwand wrote:
in my opinion rank reflect the level of understanding of the game.
it will take time for them to gain deeper reading ability and that might be why they plateau.
for example: you can achieve 12 kyu by avoiding getting killed.
but for you to pass that level you have to understand what thickness and influence does.
once you understand thickness and influence you might be stucked at 1k.
once you understand the flow of the game you can pass 1k~1d level.
after that every dan level is a plateau for me. :)
Cheers
tezza


sounds true ;-)

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