Who stands better in this fuseki?

Bill Spight · **#121**

Pippen wrote:

Black looks better here for me. White may have some corner points, but without further potential and Black has sente to play 7. Since I play my split fuseki it is a real question if a high approach at 1 or a low at 2 is better for Black. Maybe a low approach at 2 so far from the split stone (4 points between) is not so good, kind of a shape thing to continue high. I think I'll need a congress of split-fuseki-dogmatics to solve it^^.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Why would White respond at 2? Seems like katte yomi to me.

Pippen · **#122**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 1 2 7 | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Is this early Ko-fight good for Black or did Black make a mistake before? (And which move was it then?)

Shaddy · **#123**

This is an interesting position. Normally as soon as I see a ko in the fuseki, I think that whoever takes first will win the game, but this is different. Black has one more ko threat at the 3-5 point in the top left corner (both players can wedge a knight's move for one). White doesn't gain a lot if he wins the ko, because Black is thick around, but if Black wins it there's a bunch of junk White stones left on the board.

ez4u · **#124**

Pippen wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 1 2 7 | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Is this early Ko-fight good for Black or did Black make a mistake before? (And which move was it then?)

As Shaddy wrote, Black has a very solid position and more ko threats. So White made a mistake here, not Black. If White began with the play at S4, then the extension to R9 was too far. It should have been at :w4:

instead. If White started with the splitting play at R9, then she should have finished with a reinforcement at :w6:

instead of playing elsewhere.

Pippen · **#125**

Can u guys show me the bigger ko threats Black has? And which Ko threats from White should Black answer?

Shaddy · **#126**

My evaluation is that Black has ko threats at E17 and E4, and White has one at Q15. Black shouldn't answer any other threat.

I'd like to hear from a stronger player, too. I don't have a good idea for how big the Q15/E4 threats are; they look big enough to me, but I could be swayed.

ez4u · **#127**

Shaddy wrote:

My evaluation is that Black has ko threats at E17 and E4, and White has one at Q15. Black shouldn't answer any other threat.

I'd like to hear from a stronger player, too. I don't have a good idea for how big the Q15/E4 threats are; they look big enough to me, but I could be swayed.

To my eye they do not look equally big. Black might have (another) advantage here. Consider the case where Black plays the E4 threat below and White finishes the ko. The continuation shown is one we can find pretty often in pro games. The 'a' through 'd' exchanges normally follow. If Black extends along the bottom, e.g. 'e', it seems to me that Black is OK. Black's upper right corner has been weakened somewhat by losing the ko but White's lower left is still not completely safe either.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black's threat $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X | $$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 | $$ | . . 0 b 6 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O 1 7 . . e , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . d 4 3 O . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . c 8 5 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next consider if White answers Black's threat and then plays Q15. If the same continuation occurs, it seems to me that White has little joy on the right side and must seek compensation for the ko by attacking the upper Black stones. This does not look so easy because there are no other weak Black stones on the board. It is not clear that Black's corner stones are weaker than White's right-side stones. What do others think?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White's threat $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 0 . d 8 . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . a b X 4 5 . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 3 9 . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · **#128**

Just a side point about technique: if you are going to extend far with r9 which means you might sacrifice the 2 stones (perhaps answer r7 at r12 if the ko is unappealing now) then you shouldn't play the 2-2 corner clamp. At best you lose a ko threat and at worse you lost options to use the cut in other ways.

Also White's use of the second line approach to that large knight corner enclosure is suspect.

Pippen · **#129**

This is from a pro game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Can somebody show why White doesn't play 'a'? What would the sequence look like with which Black would punish White's 'a'? I played a little around and didn't see a clear advantage happening for Black after White plays 'a'.

ez4u · **#130**

What did White play instead?

Uberdude · **#131**

Breaking through white's corner seems pretty obvious and fine for black. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 2 O 5 3 O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 O X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 0 8 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or perhaps better not to play the ataris so you can keep the outside atari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 O X . O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Pippen · **#132**

@Überdude: Referring to your diagrams for me White get's life & points in the corner plus sente while Black just gets a group in gote that needs one more move to make a base. That is what troubles me. Is this really that good for Black?

@ez4u: The pro (Rui Naiwei) played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · **#133**

Pippen wrote:

@Überdude: Referring to your diagrams for me White get's life & points in the corner plus sente while Black just gets a group in gote that needs one more move to make a base. That is what troubles me. Is this really that good for Black?

Black doesn't just get a group in gote. He separates white's previously connected stones, making a broken shape through white's knight's move and blights c14. White loses her potential on the left side, and black gets some there instead. It can take some time for the value of such topoligical changes to become apparent. Take a look at the drmwc vs Joaz malkovich for an example of the long-term value of separating. You are right though that the wall doesn't have a base yet, so black should be careful.

Bill Spight · **#134**

Uberdude wrote:

Pippen wrote:

@Überdude: Referring to your diagrams for me White get's life & points in the corner plus sente while Black just gets a group in gote that needs one more move to make a base. That is what troubles me. Is this really that good for Black?

Black doesn't just get a group in gote. He separates white's previously connected stones, making a broken shape through white's knight's move and blights c14. White loses her potential on the left side, and black gets some there instead. It can take some time for the value of such topoligical changes to become apparent. Take a look at the drmwc vs Joaz malkovich for an example of the long-term value of separating. You are right though that the wall doesn't have a base yet, so black should be careful.

To second what Uberdude says, the White stone on C-14 is plainly poorly placed, while, say, the Black stone on F-17 is not.

Pippen · **#135**

Black to move. Best move? And then I feel I can do something with F3 right away. But I am not familiar with these situations. What is the purpose if one moves F3 - splitting White's chain? Just running out? What would a possible sequence look like if Black was to decide to do something with F3 right away?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · **#136**

Black should move c10 to c7.

Shaddy · **#137**

You should play R3, which secures Black's base and weakens the White stones at O3 and Q2.

ez4u · **#138**

Based on past posts, I am guessing that play proceeded something like this...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . 9 0 . 7 . . 8 . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black 7 seems to try too hard. White 8 splits Black 3, 5, and 7 into 3 groups, with a double approach pending against 3. I would probably have played 9 as a double approach. As it is, Black takes the corner but Black 5 ends up misplaced.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O 6 X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White 18 is clearly smaller than a double approach against the lower right. There is no way for Black to play on the left that will turn Black 5 into an efficient stone IMHO. But now the last thing that should be on Black's mind is putting Black 7 (F3) in motion. That should just create a heavy group that will be subject to attack. Shaddy's R3 is interesting because it leaves White the problem of how to reinforce the bottom. Anything like M4 leaves White over-concentrated on the bottom. So White probably has to jump straight up, leaving Black more scope to reduce the bottom. But Black can also consider playing something like N5 and then turning to the upper side and right.

Uberdude · **#139**

A few reasons why doing something with f3 now is a bad idea and shows a bad attitude:
- As c10 is in the wrong place (should be c7, given that I would advocate high double approach for 9 in ez4u's line to try to make it a good not bad move), white d6 is sente so black f5 is gote not sente. That makes running f3 out much harder.
- As you haven't played r3 yet (and white hasn't tenukid it), the o3 g2 group is not weak and m3 has no oomph.
- Consequently f3 has little attacking power. The only reason to play a move like f3 so early in the game is if it doesn't simply live and destroy some territory, but separate white into separate somewhat weakish groups that you have some attacking potential against.
- Greedy.
- Not a big area, top side is wide open with big opening moves to play (as well as r3 like Shaddy said).

Pippen · **#140**

Thx guys, I agree with you. Trying to develop F3 was greedy and bad direction of play.

Here is the actual game, just as a reference:

Who stands better in this fuseki?

Who is online