Who stands better in this fuseki?

ez4u · **#81**

Luckily for White, Black kills himself with 121 at O3. If Black continues as below what does White do?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . O | $$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O X O | $$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . . . X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . O O O X X . | $$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . 2 X O O . . | $$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But all this drama should have been avoided by Black. Instead of wasting time connecting at P11 with 115, shouldn't Black just hane at T7 below? If White cuts, Black has time to capture the stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . O | $$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O X 1 | $$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . . . X O O 2 | $$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . O O O X X . | $$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yet all this was unreasonable for Black I think. White's extension at 106 looks slack. What about the hane below? The ladder if Black cuts and plays a second atari looks broken to me. Black has no time to rescue the two key stones on the side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . . 6 X O . . | $$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . 5 4 X O O . | $$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . 3 O O B B . | $$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . 2 1 X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ez4u · **#82**

Oops! My mistake. In the last variation above the ladder after two pushes is broken but the one after three pushes works! I think that White has some problems here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . 1 X O . . | $$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . O X X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · **#83**

Can you play q13 at r13 ?

peti29 · **#84**

To take a shot at this without looking at the answers:
I think at 22 black stands better. Territory seems even but it's black's turn and the lonely black stone seems better placed (in terms of territory) than the lonely white stone. (Though I got to give that the white top has the largest potential.)

And now to read up on the "solution"

.

Pippen · **#85**

I have this new idea to play 6 instead of making a base on the right side or approaching another stone and wonder if it's a playable thing or a distaster (it's obviously not the best move available). I played a little around and can't see a clear refutation, can u show a sequence that punishes White? (p.s.: If a from black then b from White)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 6 . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · **#86**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 7 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reference diagram $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Pippen · **#87**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]%%w $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

That looks good from White's perspective or am I mistaken?

DrStraw · **#88**

Pippen wrote:

That looks good from White's perspective or am I mistaken?

I think you are mistaken. That lower right is going to play a much bigger part in the game than you realize.

Shaddy · **#89**

you're super mistaken

Uberdude · **#90**

All of black's stones look sensible but 1 of white's looks silly.

Amelia · **#91**

My teacher recently commented on a position similar (though not identical) to this.

Locally he commented that :w6:

was short on liberties while the black R4 group (after :b7:

) was thick, and making very good corner territory. I will leave it to you stronger players to evaluate if that comment stands for this exact position.
I'm sure there are probably more complex aspects to this as well, that he didn't mention because of my level.

Pippen · **#92**

I am in awe. :shock:

Can somebody show an example sequence just to show why this is so bad, because - honestly - as a low dan it looks just playable for White: it's spread out through the board, a lot of open ground still, open game, no thickness for Black anywhere....

skydyr · **#93**

Pippen wrote:

I am in awe. :shock:

Can somebody show an example sequence just to show why this is so bad, because - honestly - as a low dan it looks just playable for White: it's spread out through the board, a lot of open ground still, open game, no thickness for Black anywhere....

Um... All of black's groups look thick enough to me, while white has a few stones floating around the board and owes a move in the lower left in addition to having a wasted stone at R5.

Which looks better, A or B?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]%%w A $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W B, or play anywhere you want $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · **#94**

Pippen wrote:

I am in awe. :shock:

Can somebody show an example sequence just to show why this is so bad, because - honestly - as a low dan it looks just playable for White: it's spread out through the board, a lot of open ground still, open game, no thickness for Black anywhere....

I didn't consider any sequences to reach the conclusion it was bad for white, simply look at the static placement of stones and count their liberties: white has one stone with 3 liberties stuck against a black wall with 5. That exchange is bad for white, the rest of the board is roughly even.

Pippen · **#95**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . a . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black to play! Best move? I played at a, but after reviewing I like sanrensei (b) the best because all stones get connected in a powerful moyo. There are other alternatives (c,d) too. So what do you think?

mitsun · **#96**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . a . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . g . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Added a few more choices for discussion. I would reject d and g as wrong direction, but the other choices all appear quite playable to me.

gowan · **#97**

If Black plays the san-ren-sei on the right side, White should play on the top side, maybe at a. Because of the stone W8 on the lower left side it will not be easy for Black to develop on the lower side. If White takes the upper side then it will be difficult for Black to develop a good moyo.

Knotwilg · **#98**

About sanrensei

Against: if next White a, Black's natural direction of development has been reduced by both a and 8
Pro: the natural influence helps the weakish group on the left side (rather than forming a powerful moyo altogether)

My choice: a large knight's jump in the top right

Pro: it's a play on what seems to be the biggest side of all four, because both White's enclosure and Black's star point call for an extension
and against 'a': Black would be overextended across the board
and against 'c': I never liked this meagre extension from a star point. Also, If Black invades at the star point, Black's influence to the right is greater.

Pippen · **#99**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

After further thinking I think 1 is the move a pro would play (except Masaki^^). Unlike a large knight it guarantee's black sente. A sanrensei looks bold at first glance, but indeed has trouble to develop its potential. With 1 Black playing a sanrensei later (e.g. if White focuses on an extension of his shimari) would be much more poweful.

Pippen · **#100**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . 7 , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

8 is a mistake (8 is better at Q12), but I wonder if it is a very big mistake. I'd answer 9 with S12 and do not see an immediate follow-up sequence where White afterwards would say to himself: "Crap." So is it playable?

Who stands better in this fuseki?

Who is online