invasion after attach joseki

perceval · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . b 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O c . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i encountered this pattern a couple time: as W i play the kick because the B stone is 2 spaces away from the approach stone, and later in the game there is a san san invasion and i usually have problem against it.

What are the normal results? i guess the normal move is a to cut , but then this is the 'wrong' direction to kill the invasion (ie without the white pillar i would block the other way at b to kill)
c is more elgant cut, but again, B get the corner and i fell my wall is undermined by the B group underneath

So is the normal result that Black can indeed invade an live ? or is there a killing for White ?
Usually i play a or c and B live in the corner and the influence i get is negated by the Black groupe to the right

Harleqin · #2

It is normal that Black can live. He will damage his outside group, though, so this is always a timing issue.

The meaning of the kick is not to prevent the corner invasion, but to prevent the slide, which would comfortably enlarge the base of the side group.

topazg · #3

Some common sequences:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . 2 1 6 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O 5 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . 2 1 6 9 | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O 4 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Don't underestimate the value of preventing it completely with this, it's really quite big gote, especially if the group on the right isn't settled:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

SpongeBob · #4

topazg wrote:

Don't underestimate the value of preventing it completely with this, it's really quite big gote, especially if the group on the right isn't settled:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think you can also prevent the invasion in sente, means you do not have to play 3 to prevent the invasion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · #5

SpongeBob wrote:

I think you can also prevent the invasion in sente, means you do not have to play 3 to prevent the invasion

It's quite tricky, because the following is alive (EDIT: No it's not - see below)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 4 . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . O . O . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EDIT: This diagram is nonsense, White can block with at quite ok. It does give Black a capture in sente though (see below), so I still wouldn't play without the connection

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . O . O 9 7 0 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B 1 8 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . a . X 1 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O O O B | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If White blocks at :w11:

, then Black cuts for a picnic ko, else it is sente for Black and leaves a dangerous peep at "a" - which in turn makes Black at "b" big and sente.

I tend to only play :w1:

if I'm making Black heavy and attackable, else I would probably descend

Further addendum: Of course, if isn't making Black heavy, it may well not be sente whether it's a hane or descent anyway.

Loons · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc invasion after a kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hang on, you suggest this one if the group on the right isn't settled ? I thought if the group on the right isn't settled, you would want to avoid playing this - because ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This one $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is too good if the stones on the right aren't settled.

The first diagram seems like it's likely to help the black stones settle.

topazg · #7

Loons wrote:

is too good if the stones on the right aren't settled.

The first diagram seems like it's likely to help the black stones settle.

I'm not sure if I follow. In the case of the descent, Black looks alive in the corner. That's a big sacrifice of White's. In the first diagram White leaves some very severe aji against the Black group because of moves like the clamp, and the corner is safe and settled. Sure, Black may protect his group, but that's fine, because White fixes a very big corner and retains sente.

[edit]Ah, you mean playing the descent instead to prevent Black from playing the 3-3 in the first place? Sure, I said that's probably what I'd play if I wasn't making Black heavy and attackable - for example to create an open skirt for good endgame whilst picking up the corner. However, it's never going to be sente, so its timing changes a lot.

topazg · #8

Having said all this, please bear in mind my rank - I'm no professional

That said, I decided to look up the pattern on dailyjoseki. The descent is never played, the hane played to settle (though this is a rare move to be played), and after Black blocks (22 out of 22 games had Black block!) White connects 21 out of the 22 times (the other being tenuki).

So it looks like a rare situation to choose to settle it, and hane and connect are indeed normal if that's what White chooses to do

Also, my kosumi is never played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This one is instead $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 6 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O 4 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · #9

Interestingly, settling this way is much more common if O16 is low at O17 (12% of the time this is the next local move, instead of 2%), and again in all 44 games (on DailyJoseki) Black blocks, and 42 of those White connects (the other 2 are tenuki).

Kirby · **#10**

topazg wrote:

Loons wrote:

is too good if the stones on the right aren't settled.

The first diagram seems like it's likely to help the black stones settle.

I'm not sure if I follow. In the case of the descent, Black looks alive in the corner. That's a big sacrifice of White's. In the first diagram White leaves some very severe aji against the Black group because of moves like the clamp, and the corner is safe and settled. Sure, Black may protect his group, but that's fine, because White fixes a very big corner and retains sente.

[edit]Ah, you mean playing the descent instead to prevent Black from playing the 3-3 in the first place? Sure, I said that's probably what I'd play if I wasn't making Black heavy and attackable - for example to create an open skirt for good endgame whilst picking up the corner. However, it's never going to be sente, so its timing changes a lot.

I could be mistaken either on Loons's intent, or on whether he is correct or not, but my impression was that Loons was saying that the hane in the first diagram that was given to settle might not be desirable because it can help black's group a bit.

I agree that there is some aji left in the black group after the sequence that starts with the hane to settle, but I think that Loons was saying that it is often fine to let white invade at the 3-3. That's because, if you select the "decent option" to defend against it, while white lives in the corner, the decent option itself is good for attacking the black stones.

I think that's what Loons was saying, at least. From my perspective, it might depend on what's lower on the board as to whether the stones are attackable. If the stones are not attackable, then you can select one of the other josekis for dealing with the 3-3, as you've already shown.

So, for example, if there are black stones below the white ones, the decent might be a good response:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O a O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White could have, instead, tried to prevent the invasion with the hane, but perhaps it is possible that it's a little bit aji keshi:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It is hard for me to say for sure, but perhaps it is possible that the first diagram puts more pressure on black.

There's also the added bonus that, for some sequences after the 3-3, white will have been able to play at "a" in the first diagram I've given, which might be slightly useful in attacking black (at least he cannot peep, for example).

topazg · **#11**

I totally agree that if Black invades the 3-3, the descent makes a lot of sense, as the corner is already being allowed to slip away and the compensation is an attack against the Black group on the edge. Playing the descent to settle it beforehand seems rather non-severe, and doesn't seem to be played by professionals, whereas the hane does. In fact, R9 as in the latest diagram is played more often than settling with the hane anyway - presumably in preparation that after Black invades the corner White can descend more effectively?

Looking it up, once White gets a stone at R9, Black almost never invades the 3-3 according to GoGoD's db, so I guess this is why...

Kirby · **#12**

topazg wrote:

I totally agree that if Black invades the 3-3, the descent makes a lot of sense, as the corner is already being allowed to slip away and the compensation is an attack against the Black group on the edge. Playing the descent to settle it beforehand seems rather non-severe, and doesn't seem to be played by professionals, whereas the hane does. In fact, R9 as in the latest diagram is played more often than settling with the hane anyway - presumably in preparation that after Black invades the corner White can descend more effectively?

Looking it up, once White gets a stone at R9, Black almost never invades the 3-3 according to GoGoD's db, so I guess this is why...

I agree with pretty much all that you've said. I also agree that the hane is a better way to settle. However, I didn't get the impression that anybody was suggesting playing the decent to settle beforehand. The second diagram Loons gave has the decent as the second move.

Chew Terr · **#13**

See, what I want to be able to start doing is stuff like this: defend the 3-3 by playing a move like R9 that makes it bad in the overall board position.

topazg · **#14**

Kirby wrote:

I agree with pretty much all that you've said. I also agree that the hane is a better way to settle. However, I didn't get the impression that anybody was suggesting playing the decent to settle beforehand. The second diagram Loons gave has the decent as the second move.

Ah, I thought Loons was saying the because it's a good response to the 3-3 invasion that doesn't induce Black to reinforce his right group, it would be a better move to prevent the invasion in the first place. Loons?

Kirby · **#15**

As a side note, for those of you that have GoGod, does the software allow for pattern searching, or do you have to create or use your own software for that?

I tried searching gogod.co.uk, but I get this message: "This site is unavailable because it is too busy.".

I've never bought GoGod, but I'm contemplating the purchase a little bit.

Edit: I think I figured out the answer to my own question. Senseis Library says that the disk includes Kombilo.

Loons · **#16**

Kirby`s right, I meant in response to the 3-3 invasion, sorry for the ambiguity.

I generally only kick when I have some support on the far side to cramp white, which I understand is the normal tactic (otherwise the nice extension and 3-3 invasion followup makes this joseki too good for white)

That said, I have played that descent as a prophylactic measure as well, and I think in some situations I`ve felt it preferable to that hane, but I`m having trouble recalling. I`ll keep an eye out for it in my games to try and contextualize the moves.

topazg · **#17**

viewtopic.php?p=24808#p24808

There you go, tabemasu just did the hane to settle the top right too against Marcus

invasion after attach joseki

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