Opening problems for AI: Problem 45

Bill Spight · #1

It is late in the opening.

Black to play.

As always, assume komi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm43 Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . X O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . O . O O O . . . | $$ | . . . , X . . X O , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which do you choose among a, b, or c? One is the human's play, one is Elf's top choice, and one is Elf's second choice, with basically the same winrate as its top choice. The human play is very likely a blunder, losing 23½% to Elf's top choice.

Enjoy!

jlt · #2

Just stopping by to say that I like this series, even though I get most answers wrong.

Bill Spight · #3

jlt wrote:

Just stopping by to say that I like this series, even though I get most answers wrong.

And thanks for the vote of confidence.

Truth to say, I was about ready to end it some weeks ago for lack of interest. :-|

Gomoto · #4

pwaldron · #5

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm43 Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . X O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . O . O O O . . . | $$ | . . . , X . . X O , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this has to be 'b'. To play 'a' just crawls low in an area of Black strength.

Far more interesting, though, is the reason for wanting to play 'c'. I don't see anything concrete, but there are so many tantalizing threads. A few thoughts:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm43 Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . X O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . d . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . O b O O O . . . | $$ | . . . , X . . X O , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . O . . . X O . c . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Assuming white responds in the obvious way, black has 'a' that creates eye shape. There's an interesting cut at 'b' that may be useful in combination with 'a'. Maybe white will have to pull those black stones off the board. Black 'c' may also be interesting, and may combine with 'd' in certain situations to allow black to threaten the four white stones on the side.

So many almosts and maybes, but nothing concrete. It's either an awe-inspiring move of profound subtlety, or it's a computer trying to delay figuring out what to do. The latter is actually quite comforting...I find myself doing the same far too often.

Knotwilg · #6

Bill Spight · #7

Gomoto · #8

C is not a probe, white has not several options to respond

C loses a ko threat

C is a bad move that does no harm immediatly

Humans can recognize C as a bad move

AI has problems to see C is bad

John Fairbairn · #9

Quote:

C is not a probe, white has not several options to respond

It is a probe. He does not need the opponent to have several options - two is enough: O2 and R2 will do

Quote:

C looses a ko threat

(a) loses - Dutch people, please note. No offence intended, but the non-word 'looses' really sounds like scratching down a window pane to many natives who would assume it rhymes with 'mooses'. American mis-spellings such as center when made by Brits are even more irritating. And more English speakers in the world follow British spelling then US spellings, I believe. At any rate it's more of an even split than you might imagine.

(b) but it also makes future ko threats bigger

Quote:

C is a bad move that does no harm immediatly

Lack of immediate effect sounds plausible but that doesn't make it bad - just wishy-washy

Quote:

Humans can recognize C as a bad move

Humans can also recognise C as not a bad move

Quote:

AI has problems to see C is bad

On behalf of the bots: "Sez you and whose army?"

My own perception is that A is not good. Many people amateurs play this automatically as a shape move, but pros seem to play it only when it is essential, and I see no urgency here.

I favour B for a slightly odd reason. Until last night I would have assumed a move in the upper-left corner was mandatory for a bot. But I saw a vaguely similar situation in a game by the utterly brilliant Huang Longshi where he played a B-like move, treating it as a probe to see which side the opponent would start off in the corner. Because this is not the fuseki, the principle of prior occupancy of an empty corner does not carry the same force as it would there. It can be treated as a miai situation here. And of course the elsewhere move, B, has a lot going for it in addition to its probing function. (That said, I'd still I'd be very surprised if a Black move in the UR corner is a bad move.)

Gomoto · **#10**

O2 is not an option but a losing move. In this sense C would be a probe into the ability of the opponent or should we say a trick move.

I am fine with calling it wishy-washy over bad.

It will be interesting if further AI development will change the evaluation of this and similar moves.

Uberdude · **#11**

John Fairbairn wrote:

Quote:

C is not a probe, white has not several options to respond

It is a probe. He does not need the opponent to have several options - two is enough: O2 and R2 will do

(b) but it also makes future ko threats bigger

I'd say the most likely 2nd choice that makes this a probe is the tenuki choice (with O2 3rd), which links to the making a bigger ko threat point. This black 1 is a few points bigger as a ko threat than q2 as a ko threat (say 34 points versus 30 points, pulling numbers out of the air), so if there's a ko happening which needs a >30 and <=34 point threat then it's good if you have already made this exchange because it generated a valid threat where you otherwise wouldn't have one, but if it's a ko for which <30 is valid then it's bad to have wasted 1 threat, and if the ko needs >34 then it didn't matter now and depends on the size of future kos. But I don't yet foresee any such 30-34 point kos developing and doubt Elf does either, so it's probably more a horizon effect of making incidental exchanges to get more stones on the board and increase the confidence of the winrate.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . X O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . O . O O O . . . | $$ | . . . , X . . X O , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . O . . . X O . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The probe-do-you-wanna-tenuki is similar to why bots like to make this exchange early: if you do it latter when there's a big fight that you want it to be a sente exchange in there's a danger it's not big enough and gets tenukid.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ . . . O . . . . . $$ . . O . O X X 2 . $$ . . . O X O O 1 . $$ . . . . X X X . . $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

John Fairbairn wrote:

Quote:

AI has problems to see C is bad

On behalf of the bots: "Sez you and whose army?"

I ne-er thought I'd see the day!

John Fairbairn wrote:

American mis-spellings such as center when made by Brits are even more irritating.

C'est moi?!

Bill Spight · **#12**

John Fairbairn wrote:

American mis-spellings such as center when made by Brits are even more irritating. And more English speakers in the world follow British spelling then US spellings, I believe. At any rate it's more of an even split than you might imagine.

Online Etymology Dictionary wrote:

The spelling with -re was popularized in Britain by Johnson's dictionary (following Bailey's), though -er is older and was used by Shakespeare, Milton, and Pope.

Knotwilg · **#13**

John Fairbairn wrote:

(a) loses - Dutch people, please note. No offence intended, but the non-word 'looses' really sounds like scratching down a window pane to many natives who would assume it rhymes with 'mooses'. American mis-spellings such as center when made by Brits are even more irritating. And more English speakers in the world follow British spelling then US spellings, I believe. At any rate it's more of an even split than you might imagine.

Is this a test for the Dutch speakers, John?

John Fairbairn · **#14**

Quote:

The spelling with -re was popularized in Britain by Johnson's dictionary (following Bailey's), though -er is older and was used by Shakespeare

Well, Shakespeare couldn't even spell his own name consistently. And let us not forget that American spellings were popularised by a Scot.

Quote:

Is this a test for the Dutch speakers, John?

Sorry, but I don't understand the question. I'm just observing that Dutch people seem particularly prone to loose usage of lose. I've seen it picked up on several other non-go forums, so it's not just me being picky.

It's not really that it irritates me. It's more of a fascination. Dutch people are generally so superb at English (and other languages) that to see this blindspot over and over again makes me wonder what is going on. The irritation I feel is that, even as a linguist, I don't understand how it comes about. (The only other constant hiccup I can think of by Dutch people is "an applause". This is one of Andre Rieu's solecisms, who overuse of it makes me cringe, even though he is otherwise one of my favourite entertainers. But at least I can see where it comes from.)

Bill Spight · **#15**

John Fairbairn wrote:

Quote:

The spelling with -re was popularized in Britain by Johnson's dictionary (following Bailey's), though -er is older and was used by Shakespeare

Well, Shakespeare couldn't even spell his own name consistently.

Neither could Maleore.

Knotwilg · **#16**

John Fairbairn wrote:

Quote:

The spelling with -re was popularized in Britain by Johnson's dictionary (following Bailey's), though -er is older and was used by Shakespeare

Well, Shakespeare couldn't even spell his own name consistently. And let us not forget that American spellings were popularised by a Scot.

Quote:

Is this a test for the Dutch speakers, John?

Sorry, but I don't understand the question. I'm just observing that Dutch people seem particularly prone to loose usage of lose. I've seen it picked up on several other non-go forums, so it's not just me being picky.

It's not really that it irritates me. It's more of a fascination. Dutch people are generally so superb at English (and other languages) that to see this blindspot over and over again makes me wonder what is going on. The irritation I feel is that, even as a linguist, I don't understand how it comes about. (The only other constant hiccup I can think of by Dutch people is "an applause". This is one of Andre Rieu's solecisms, who overuse of it makes me cringe, even though he is otherwise one of my favourite entertainers. But at least I can see where it comes from.)

I was just mocking your then/than mistake (in bold)

I beg to differ about the Dutch excellence at other languages. I've rather been awestruck by the Swedes in that regard, their fellow Scandinavians (a word they all hate) and likewise by Russians, Iranians (?), Syrians and in general people from the Middle East. I'm also making a modest case for us, Belgian Dutch speakers, who have been squeezed between and ruled by so many different cultures that we've become accustomed to acquire them. The Dutch have good command of English and German but we're more into the Roman languages - if I can be so awfully generalizing.

As to "loose/lose" - it continues to baffle me too how such an easy mistake is so stubborn to cure. In our region, which I praised a moment ago, there are other seemingly incurable errors, like the pronunciation of the verb "to interpret" (said: in-ter-PREET) or "to determine" (DEE-ter-mine, where mine is pronounced like the possessive).

And thanks for "an applause": it's something I didn't know to be wrong. Only recently I unlearned the phrase "according to me" after a native speaker had pointed it out as a rather awkward thing to say.

Cheers!

Bill Spight · **#17**

Knotwilg wrote:

Only recently I unlearned the phrase "according to me" after a native speaker had pointed it out as a rather awkward thing to say.

Phil Harris wrote:

We ain't just gonna keep on playin' this game accordin' to Mister Hoylee.
We gon' play this game accordin' to me!

John Fairbairn · **#18**

Bill

You mentioned Johnson's dictionary. He had a few notable opponents in Scotland, but the most notable was Robert Fergusson, who was a forerunner of Burns in writing Scots poetry. He is most famous for his "Ode to the Gowdspink" (the goldfinch) but he could match Johnson in both "normal" English and sarcasm. It took me a while to dig it out, but I think it was worth the time as you are one of the few here that might appreciate it. Note that it's (ostensibly) English but I see it got at least as many wavy wed lines from the spell checker as did To a Mouse.

There's a sly joke in the last line. You're not supposed to pronounce the final 'd' in Loch Lomond. Presumably Johnson did.

‘To Dr Samuel Johnson: Food for a New Edition of His Dictionary’
Robert Fergusson

Great Pedagogue! whose literarian lore,
With syllable on syllable conjoined,
To transmutate and varify, hast learned
The whole revolving scientific names
That in the alphabetic columns lie,
Far from the knowledge of mortalic shapes;
As we, who never can peroculate
The miracles by thee miraculized,
The Muse, silential long, with mouth apert,
Would give vibration to stagnatic tongue,
And loud encomiate thy puissant name,
Eulogiated from the green decline
Of Thames’s banks to Scoticanian shores,
Where Lochlomondian liquids undulize.

dhu163 · **#19**

Opening problems for AI: Problem 45

Who is online