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Which pro players to study for different aspects of the game
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4837		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Brenno [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Which pro players to study for different aspects of the game
Hi all,

As I move along in my go studies, and gain a stone or two here and there, I am beginning to appreciate pro games a little more, though of course being around 11k there is still so much in their games that is way above me. (Please don't reply to this post by saying there are other things I should study before trying to go over pro games...)

With that said, I imagine that, while it may be argued that any pro-level game could be seen as a model to look up to, some, more orthodox in their application of fundamentals, may be better suited for study by a low DDK like me. Some professional players seem to stand out by the way their daring creativity in which they deviate (at least at a first glance) from conventional wisdom (Go Seigen? Lee Sedol?), whereas others are known precisely for their solid, thoughtful, clear use of fundamentals (Lee Chang-ho?).

With that in mind, which professional players would you suggest one should study if one wants to focus on solid fundamentals? If it helps, we could try dividing "solid fundamentals" in a number of aspects to focus on:
1) good shape
2) attack
3) use of influence
4) endgame
5)...?



Any thoughts or suggestions on this would be very welcome.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
For studying fundamentals, read books on that topic!

Concerning the thread topic:

- exchange: Go Seigen
- complex tsumego: Hashimoto Utaro
- basic tsumego: 8d+ on KGS
- honte: Fujisawa Shuko
- balance: Takagawa Kaku
- endgame instead of opening: Lee Changho
- endgame: castle games
- 2 stone handicap game: Shusai
- sacrifice: Kajiwara
- imagination: some 5d+ KGS players
- classical imagination: Takemiya Masaki
- single imaginative moves: Ma Xiaochun, Nie Weiping
- shinogi: Cho Chikun
- manego: Fujisawa Hosai
- reading deeper than the opponent cares: Kitani
Author:  snorri [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
I had a longer post, but I lost it.

Gist: if your KGS 11k, as your info indicates, it's not like any pro is going to be bad at those things.

I have some favorites:

Attack: Yamashita Keigo (in younger years, before 9p), Mok Chin-seok, Yu Ch'ang-hyeok.

Endgame: old masters, Yi Ch'ang-ho.

Just being creative: Li Zhe

Learning how to pull something out of your rear in a totally lost game: Yi Se-tol.
Author:  lovely [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
Sensei's has a nice list.

http://senseis.xmp.net/?ProfessionalPlayersGoStyles

1) Good shape
In the old days pros cared a lot about shape. Nowadays they don't really care about good shape but rather getting the best result over an aesthetic one. If you want a good example of good shape I would recommend title matches from Japan in the 80s and 90s, particularly Otake Hideo and Ishida Yoshio.

2) Attack
Korean games in the last 15 years or so would be a good idea, besides the obvious like Seo Bongsoo and Lee Sedol, I would also recommend Baek Hongsuk and Kim Jiseok. If you want to see good examples of attacking with good shape I would suggest players such as Yoo Changhyuk and Kato Masao. Masao in his earlier years was an incredible attacker and killer.

3) Use of influence
Obviously Takemiya Masaki, but also later games of Rin Kaiho.

4) Endgame
Lee Chang-ho is perhaps the best endgame player in history. Along with him I would look at games from the later stages of Kato Masao's life as well as Ishida Yoshio.

Some other professionals I would recommend are Kong Jie, Xie He and Kataoka Satoshi who are very balanced and even keeled. Kataoka puts a lot of emphasis on shape and using thickness, but his style isn't hard enough. He is still a very good player with good aesthetics.
Author:  oren [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
Brenno wrote:
Any thoughts or suggestions on this would be very welcome.


Certainly there are pros you can pick for specific styles, but you can't go wrong just picking a strong pro you like and working through the games. None will be weak in any of the categories you list.

I would focus more on where you can get good commentaries explaining the moves. 1971 Honinbo, Kamakura, Final Summit, 9 Dan Showdown, Invincible, etc... will give you a lot of good moves to think about.

If you want more modern games, gogameworld.com has simple commentaries on the latest games, and I think it's worth the money.
Author:  Brenno [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
Thanks, everyone. This is the kind of reply I needed.
Author:  lovely [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
Now that I think of it, it would be interesting to see if we could ask pros in the English-speaking go community who they studied as insei. I know An Younggil studied a lot of Sakata, Kobayashi and Go Seigen.
Author:  ez4u [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
RobertJasiek wrote:
For studying fundamentals, read books on that topic!

Concerning the thread topic:

- exchange: Go Seigen
- complex tsumego: Hashimoto Utaro
- basic tsumego: 8d+ on KGS
- honte: Fujisawa Shuko
- balance: Takagawa Kaku
- endgame instead of opening: Lee Changho
- endgame: castle games
- 2 stone handicap game: Shusai
- sacrifice: Kajiwara
- imagination: some 5d+ KGS players
- classical imagination: Takemiya Masaki
- single imaginative moves: Ma Xiaochun, Nie Weiping
- shinogi: Cho Chikun
- manego: Fujisawa Hosai
- reading deeper than the opponent cares: Kitani

I particularly like Robert's list because he mentions KGS games. I think the games between a high dan and someone weaker are often better than pro games for individual study. They do a better job of illustrating good play versus bad and helping us understand why good play is, in fact, good. :blackeye:
Author:  gogameguru [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
oren wrote:
If you want more modern games, gogameworld.com has simple commentaries on the latest games, and I think it's worth the money.

Or there are the commented games by An Younggil (8p) at our site, which explain more, provide variations for study and are free. Just because we choose to offer them for free doesn't make them less valuable. I may be biased (to make it clear, I run that site with friends), but I genuinely think Younggil's commentaries are better.

Also, I agree with Robert and Dave. Watching games on a Go server can teach you a lot. Even looking at the games of people only 5 stones or so stronger than you can be helpful, and it's easier to understand what's going on.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
lovely wrote:
3) Use of influence
Obviously Takemiya Masaki


I have not stated him (or myself) for this purpose because there are many amateurs and professionals with often good use of influence. I would rather recommend to study lots of different post-WWII players to see different uses of influence.
Author:  oren [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
gogameguru wrote:
Or there are the commented games by An Younggil (8p) at our site, which explain more, provide variations for study and are free.


I certainly enjoy those as well. I just point out gogameworld because of the massive number of commented games. I really like Younggil's reviews.
Author:  logan [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
I also third the notion that watching stronger players play weaker players on go servers can be very helpful. Because it can be easier to understand what the weaker play is trying to do and how the stronger player counters it, rather than watching two higher level players and not understanding what either is trying to do.
Author:  Brenno [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
This is extremely helpful, everyone. Thanks so much.

While it may be too early to grasp it well, given my level, I've also been recently trying to understand the concept (and the use) of "sabaki". I came across it when reading Sakata Eio's "Tesuji and Anti-Suji of Go", and have checked other sources, such as Sensei's library. While it may be perhaps more specific than the translation "fancy footwork" may suggest, it seemed to me I had found the name for a kind of sequence of moves that I had seen on the games of stronger players that had so far completely eluded me.

I am speaking of those moves (and please forgive me the crude, perhaps naive description) in which an unusual attachment or placement, at a point apparently unrelated to the local problem (an escape or a connection, for instance), played very lightly, exploiting a weaknesses in the shapes that I could only see after slow and careful reading (but that move came so quickly and so easily from the stronger player! It's hard to say that he even took the trouble to *read* it..) suddenly becomes crucial for the local situation, and allows that escape, or connection.

As you can see, in the description above is the impression that this kind of move (which I am calling, perhaps mistakenly, "sabaki") causes on me. And I often find myself both in awe and at loss after some such clever sequence. I often catch myself wondering: How did he manage to see that subtle weakness there? And how on earth did playing THERE completely changed what seemed to be a completely unfavorable situation HERE?, etc.

My question, then, is: are there any pro players that one could study in order to see good examples of sabaki, and perhaps begin to understand it better? Or is the aura of mystery that my description above attaches to it simply the result that I lack the fundamentals that make this kind of play possible? And, if that's the case, could anyone point me to the right direction ("you won't understand sabaki until you have a firm grasp of...") so that I could begin to mend this gap?


This was a long post, and I apologize for that. I hope it was not as confusing nor as elusive as the topic it is touching on. And thanks again for all the help!



RobertJasiek wrote:
For studying fundamentals, read books on that topic!

Concerning the thread topic:

- exchange: Go Seigen
- complex tsumego: Hashimoto Utaro
- basic tsumego: 8d+ on KGS
- honte: Fujisawa Shuko
- balance: Takagawa Kaku
- endgame instead of opening: Lee Changho
- endgame: castle games
- 2 stone handicap game: Shusai
- sacrifice: Kajiwara
- imagination: some 5d+ KGS players
- classical imagination: Takemiya Masaki
- single imaginative moves: Ma Xiaochun, Nie Weiping
- shinogi: Cho Chikun
- manego: Fujisawa Hosai
- reading deeper than the opponent cares: Kitani
Author:  gogameguru [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
There's a book by Yoda Norimoto called 'Sabaki' which has been translated into English. It's published by Hinoki Press.

Possibly the kind of thing you're talking about though is just being very good at tesuji? There was a recent discussion about that here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4827 - perhaps you'll find it useful. Sabaki is partly about the kind of spectacular moves (tesuji) that you describe and partly about using whole board judgement to decide when to use them. Most good tesuji books (if you haven't read 'Tesuji' by James Davies, it's worth a few reads) have a section on tesuji that can be used for sabaki. Yoda's book is intended to also teach you about judgement.

As for studying a particular pro's games to learn sabaki, you'll find all pros are very good at all aspects of the game. If you just find a pro whose games you enjoy, you'll see plenty examples of all kinds of things. If you really want to find games from someone who has a reputation for managing weak groups effectively, you could try Park Younghun, Cho Chikun or Sakata (starting with modern games and going back :)).

And by the way, don't worry, your posts aren't too long. You should see some of mine... :oops:
Author:  topazg [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
gogameguru wrote:
... If you really want to find games from someone who has a reputation for managing weak groups effectively, you could try Park Younghun, Cho Chikun or Sakata (starting with modern games and going back :)).


I'm not particularly familiar with Park Younghun, but I wholeheartedly agree with the other two.
Author:  lovely [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
Hane Naoki is also good at making groups live. Not as good as Cho and Sakata, but he certainly has the confidence (look at some of the Honinbo games against Yamashita this year).
Author:  Brenno [ Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
Thanks a lot for the replies. I think Gogameguru (David?) is right -- after reading the thread he pointed to, I believe sabaki is only one instance of the kind of skillful play that I am trying to learn more about (advancing in my reading of Sakata's "Tesuji and Anti-suji of Go" only helped to confirm this). I've begun to go over some of the games of the players recommended, and, even though it is mostly way above my head for now, I can see there's plenty of what I am looking for in there. Now on to study :)
Author:  Knotwilg [ Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which pro players to study for different aspects of the
If studying sabaki is what you want to do, then that is of course what you should do. As you've described it, it looks like sabaki on pro level, with seemingly unrelated plays that suddenly cooperate. That surely is fascinating.

I wouldn't anticipate on any spectacular increase of your winning percentages after that particular study, but perhaps an improved experience in playing Go. I don't believe any amateur below 4-5d wins or loses due to a spectacular and intricate combination of moves.

Yesterday I won a game by deciding to go for a seemingly slow move, but which enclosed a living group and aimed for endgame. My opponent took the endgame and I killed the group (while I should not have captured more than three stones). It was a good move, taking about 10 points, but thanks to my opponent's misjudging the L&D, the game was over.

So, surrounding + L&D skills does the trick far beyond shodan level.
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