Influence vs territory question

lindentree · #1

So I wound up with this corner position as white, and I was wondering if the territory was enough to equal Black's influence. (Black also got sente) I botched a lot of the moves leading up to this, but during the game, I figured I might still be okay, even though normally I'd take influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Starting position. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Chew edit]Added a missing star point. Sorry, it was bothering me.[/edit]

p2501 · #2

Where did black play next? My kyuish sense tells me black got better off, I would probably complete the classic chinese opening.

edit: typo

lindentree · #3

I think your idea would've been good, but he approached my other corner.

Chew Terr · #4

You're stronger than me, but I would be fine with this as white. Black has some interesting aji that you have to watch, but nothing that looks unmanageable. And your outside fourth-line stone is in a great position to help you limit things. Seems playable by both sides, really.

lindentree · #5

Yeah, I thought it was playable at the time, but wanted some outside feedback. Plus, I did win, so there is that.

Magicwand · #6

i will have to say black is better.

edit:
i will be more clear on my stand.
i will take black over white 100% if i had a choice.

tetron · #7

My first instinct was easily But sente might be worth a lot there certainly seems a lot of play left in the game. What concerns me though, is that the corner doesn't seem as secure as I would like and I think black can exploit the attack at H3 and extend the right hand corner before attacking at the top of the board.

daniel_the_smith · #8

I could easily lose this game with either color.

ez4u · #9

I think I would prefer to take White from here. I am interested though, how did Black approach the upper left corner?

lindentree · **#10**

One space high approach.

ez4u · **#11**

Then I would definitely prefer White. I think Black should approach from the right rather than straight on. Black is too thick at the bottom to play a normal approach move profitably, IMHO.

lindentree · **#12**

Well...actually, I did give him the corner....it seemed like a good idea at the time! :sad:

ez4u · **#13**

How did the game continue?

lindentree · **#14**

Dusk Eagle · **#15**

I personally prefer white, thanks to the J4 stone and especially due to the white stone in the upper-left corner. If black had that corner I would easily prefer black.

Magicwand · **#16**

first..you diag and sgf are different..it makes difference.

i think :b23:

was waste of aji..could have handled it better...
i drew 3 variations and i dont see anything good for white...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B23 Starting position. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X 7 3 O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B23 Starting position. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . 3 O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B23 Starting position. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and another waste on move on top left...

i really think black is better after penuki.
i am surprised to find many people think white is better..

Solomon · **#17**

Regarding the OP's question, to me it is clearly better for Black. Hell I'd take Black even if White had sente.

Bill Spight · **#18**

IMO the White territory and the Black thickness are roughly equal. (White is slightly better, perhaps, because of the tiny amount of aji of the White stone touching the Black wall.)

That said, Black has a stone in two of the other corners, and White has one. So Black is ahead overall. In addition, it is Black's move. So I, too, prefer Black.

lindentree · **#19**

, looking back at my question and original thoughts, I seem to have been asking not whether White was better off, but whether White could even continue the game after giving up so much thickness.

Bill Spight · **#20**

lindentree wrote:

:lol: , looking back at my question and original thoughts, I seem to have been asking not whether White was better off, but whether White could even continue the game after giving up so much thickness.

It's not over till the fat lady sings.

--Go proverb (very loose translation

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Influence vs territory question

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