An uncommon move in a very common joseki

Kobayagi · #1

Normally black extends with :b7:

and white hanes and connects on the second line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 5 . 2 . 3 . $$ . . . 6 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The question is how to respond with white.

I was told this is an old joseki, and is playable for both. The old joseki was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O . X . $$ . . . O X . 5 . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

But recently I watched a Baduk TV program by Kim Seongryong on refuting trick plays, which considered :b7:

in the initial diagram to be a trick play.

He suggests instead this as the best line for both, but black should use it only in special circumstances:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 8 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O . X . $$ . . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . 2 3 . 7 . . . $$ | . . . 4 5 . . . . $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This seems much better for white than the old joseki. But what if black extends at :w8:

with

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O . X . $$ . . . O X . 5 6 . . $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Kim says letting white play :w4:

is an insult from black, and after :w6:

black trick has been refuted.

My question is how should white answer :b1:

in the next diagram?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O . X . $$ . . . O X . X O . . $$ | . . O O 1 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

In a game I played before watching this lecture I played as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . $$ | . X X 2 3 . . . . $$ | . . O X . O 9 X . $$ . . . O X 5 X O . . $$ | . . O O 1 4 . . . $$ | . . . . 6 8 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

but the result doesn't seem bad for black, as white is undercut, and there's a peep in white's influence.

So it seems to me after having heard that :w6:

in the previous diagram refutes black's trick play that white ought to play :w2:

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X 7 6 . . 5 . $$ | . . O X . O 2 X . $$ . . . O X 9 X O . . $$ | . . O O 1 8 . . . $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Probably

not best, but the point is white gets a kosumi and an atari which allows a knights move for the top white group to escape. And black's corner group still doesn't have two eyes.

PS: this is my first post on 19x19, so please forgive me if the diagrams don't show up correctly!

crux · #2

Kobayagi wrote:

My question is how should white answer :b1:

in the next diagram?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O . X . $$ . . . O X . X O . . $$ | . . O O 1 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I don't know the correct answer, but there's a shortage of liberties pattern in this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . $$ | . X X 3 4 . . . . $$ | . . O X 5 O a X . $$ . . . O X 7 X O . . $$ | . . O O X . . . . $$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

After

, Black can't answer with :b2:

because his position collapses. Black also can't cut at a. So I'd start with :w1:

, and maybe then connect at a after Black's reply.

Dusk Eagle · #3

The shortage of liberties also exists if black plays here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O . X . $$ . . . O X . X O . . $$ | . . O O X . 2 . . $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If black makes the empty triangle, then white connects:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O 3 X . $$ . . . O X . X O . . $$ | . . O O X 2 . . . $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

And if black just cuts white for :B2:, black collapses.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X b . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O 2 X . $$ . . . O X a X O . . $$ | . . O O X 3 . . . $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I missed the shortage of liberties until crux pointed it out.

Kobayagi · #4

I agree with both of you, and in your variations white seems to have a better position.

Black might decide to sacrifice the corner, but I suspect that can't be very good. For example here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X 4 6 . . . . $$ | . 8 O X . O 7 X . $$ . . . O X 5 X O . . $$ | . . O O 1 . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 3 . . . $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

oca · #5

Hello,

I'm also working on that joseki.
I'm trying to see what happends if black plays :b7:

instead of (a)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 5 . 2 . 3 . $$ | . . 6 1 . . . . . $$ | . . 7 a . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I suppose white will replay like this :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O . X . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . 1 X . . . . . . $$ | . a b . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

and then I dont find any good continuation for white whether black plays (a) or (b)
but I'm sur I missing somthing because the standard joseki is like this instead of doing a hane at (a) ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Corner $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . O . X . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . a B . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Any advice on this ?

schawipp · #6

@Oca: Your supposed move :b7:

is a well known joseki mistake (you can also call it "variation" :mrgreen:

- there may be special situations, where this move is justified, though). You can find some first explanations in http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=159735#p159735 in the game comments from move 20 on.

A further good posting is http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=145347#p145347.

gowan · #7

schawipp wrote:

@Oca: Your supposed move :b7:

is a well known joseki mistake (you can also call it "variation" :mrgreen:

- there may be special situations, where this move is justified, though). You can find some first explanations in http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=159735#p159735 in the game comments from move 20 on.

A further good posting is http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=145347#p145347.

There is a lot of material on this "variation" on SL:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointOneSpace ... terception Scroll down to the section titled "Mistakes, resp. how to punish agressiveness"

See also http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointOneSpace ... Underneath for some discussion of the original variation.

skydyr · #8

oca wrote:

.... Any advice on this ?

CUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUT!

oca · #9

thank you everybody for your replies and links, exactly what I was looking for. cut or clamp seems to be nice reply !

illluck · **#10**

oca wrote:

thank you everybody for your replies and links, exactly what I was looking for. cut or clamp seems to be nice reply !

Cutting is not correct unless you get the hane-connect in first (same is true of the clamp).

oca · **#11**

illluck wrote:

Cutting is not correct unless you get the hane-connect in first (same is true of the clamp).

Thx illluck,but I don't understand what you mean by "the hane-connect in" :oops:

Here is what I saw on SL about the clamp, is "the hane-connect in" :w4:

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 4 5 . . . . $$ | . . O 1 7 @ . X . $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . $$ | . 0 3 9 . . . . . $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

[edit]just corrected a missing space typo [/edit]

HermanHiddema · **#12**

oca wrote:

Thxillluck,but I don't understand what you mean by "the hane-connect in" :oops:

Here is what I saw on SL about the clamp, is "the hane-connect in" :w4:

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 4 5 . . . . $$ | . . O 1 7 @ . X . $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . $$ | . 0 3 9 . . . . . $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

is a hane, :w6:

is a connection, so together they for the "hane-connect". The word "in" is not part of the term.

mitsun · **#13**

English grammar rules are confusing and seldom obeyed. He meant "get in" (verb) the "hane-connect" (direct object).

oca · **#14**

Ok thx, I think everything is clear for me now !

An uncommon move in a very common joseki

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