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Differences between Western and Asian Books
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Author:  ez4u [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
rpchuang wrote:
ez4u wrote:
I do not know quite what to make of this topic. In my case I own around 200 Japanese Go books. Of course there are many drill books but the majority are typical books aimed at amateur... book buyers. Let's face it, publishers do not care about theories of learning, they care about selling books! Your average book buyer in Japan is not looking for materials to support an organized, 50-hour per week study program. They are looking for the quick fix that will help them beat Sato-san at the office over lunch. They buy the colorful titles that promise to reveal the secrets of top-level play by the big names in five easy chapters. That is why those titles dominate the displays in bookstores: Yamashita on fighting, Takao on thickness, Cho Chikun on counting, and Takemiya on anything he wants to write about. Tami has reported on a number of such books in recent months and has captured what they are like quit well. Currently MYCOM seems like the most aggressive publisher in Go space and they are very much into the celebrity + strategic theme formula. Never forget that regardless of how many strong Asian players you see on the servers, the vast majority of Go books are bought by us typical duffers with a little time on our hands and a little money burning a hole in our pockets. We are interested in the stuff that dreams are made of, not more drills! :blackeye:



Is 200 the number of books required to reach 6dan? I thought my library of 50 Go books was sufficient.:(

Looks like I have a long way to go..:)

I said that I own them, not that I had read them. If I had carefully studied all 200, who knows where I could be! :study:
Author:  badukJr [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
HermanHiddema wrote:
I think that, in general, eastern teaching differs from western teaching in at least these two important ways.
1. Eastern teaching focusses much more on teaching from authority. Westerners are much more likely to ask "why?" when presented with an answer to their question, whereas easterners take the answer as a given, based on the authority of the teacher.
2. Eastern teaching focusses more on examples and repetition. Do 1000 tsumego, rather than learning tsumego principles.

I think that, for go, teaching by example and repetition is more likely to be successful in increasing your playing strength than teaching from principles. Why? Because 90% of playing strength is reading strength, and 90% of reading strength is pattern recognition. Pattern recognition is something our brains do very well, but it is not based on principles. Repetition trains your pattern recognition, therefore it works.

Westerners, however, often dislike this approach, because they want to feel that they understand moves. They therefore often prefer teaching based on principles, proverbs, and checklists.

If you are writing for a western audience, then I think attempting to explain things from principles is a good idea. Not because it gives better progress in playing strength, but because your readers prefer it, and are more likely to like and recommend your book, and hence increase your sales.

For a western audience, it is also less important that a book is written by a pro, because there is less focus on teaching from authority, hence authority is not as important. Easterners put far more value on the strength (and hence level of authority) of the author than a western audience does.


Do you have a source that Westerns ask 'why?' more than Asians when presented with a problem? I mentor young researchers and of course many are Asian. However, asking 'why?' seems to vary more on an individual level than cultural. I honestly didn't notice a marked difference. The only thing that stands out is my most bullheaded 'Why?' askers were always Asian, always going until we ended up at first principle physics.

For both Asian and Westerners, the ones who avoided asking 'why?' almost always did so because they didn't want to appear stupid.
Author:  lemmata [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
badukJr wrote:
Do you have a source that Westerns ask 'why?' more than Asians when presented with a problem?
One of Yilun Yang's books say that, in Asia, whenever he taught something, the students would only say "Yes, teacher". He says that he felt compelled to write a book for a Western audience because he was always being asked "Why?" by his students after coming to the US.

There has been a great deal of convergence of cultures over the years. When I was in elementary school in Korea, I reported to the principal that my teacher was was beating other students and swearing at them (I felt confident because I read some law books on my dad's bookshelf). The principal ratted me out to her and she stopped teaching for three days so that she could beat me in front of the class instead of teaching. If that happened today, she would have been fired because teachers are no longer allowed to use corporal punishment in Korean schools.

The gap between Western and Eastern cultures is shrinking everyday, but there are still generations of people in Asia who grew up in a different culture than the currently prevailing one.
badukJr wrote:
For both Asian and Westerners, the ones who avoided asking 'why?' almost always did so because they didn't want to appear stupid.
That's true, but some of the older Asians may also have been beaten as children when they were too persistent with their questions.
Author:  badukJr [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
lemmata wrote:
badukJr wrote:
Do you have a source that Westerns ask 'why?' more than Asians when presented with a problem?
One of Yilun Yang's books say that, in Asia, whenever he taught something, the students would only say "Yes, teacher". He says that he felt compelled to write a book for a Western audience because he was always being asked "Why?" by his students after coming to the US.

There has been a great deal of convergence of cultures over the years. When I was in elementary school in Korea, I reported to the principal that my teacher was was beating other students and swearing at them (I felt confident because I read some law books on my dad's bookshelf). The principal ratted me out to her and she stopped teaching for three days so that she could beat me in front of the class instead of teaching. If that happened today, she would have been fired because teachers are no longer allowed to use corporal punishment in Korean schools.

The gap between Western and Eastern cultures is shrinking everyday, but there are still generations of people in Asia who grew up in a different culture than the currently prevailing one.
badukJr wrote:
For both Asian and Westerners, the ones who avoided asking 'why?' almost always did so because they didn't want to appear stupid.
That's true, but some of the older Asians may also have been beaten as children when they were too persistent with their questions.


Exactly 0 of the young researchers have been old Asians, due to logic.
Author:  Mef [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
ez4u wrote:
rpchuang wrote:
Is 200 the number of books required to reach 6dan? I thought my library of 50 Go books was sufficient.:(

Looks like I have a long way to go..:)

I said that I own them, not that I had read them. If I had carefully studied all 200, who knows where I could be! :study:



Nevermind where you could be, we all know where you would be...at the office playing go over lunch. Sato-san would have never known what hit him.
Author:  lemmata [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
badukJr wrote:
Exactly 0 of the young researchers have been old Asians, due to logic.

Are you being intentionally combative? No conclusion of that sort is implied by what I wrote. Nowhere in my post is anything stated in terms of absolutes. Even if it were stated in terms of absolutes, I don't recall using any universal quantifiers.

I hope you didn't think that I was attacking you because I quoted your posts. I was just continuing a conversation.

EDIT: I understand that it is impossible for young people to have been old, but I am still failing to see how this is connected to anything I wrote.
Author:  billywoods [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
lemmata wrote:
That's true, but some of the older Asians may also have been beaten as children when they were too persistent with their questions.

Also true of Westerners. I hear plenty of stories of people even in my parents' generation being terrified to ask what I would consider reasonable questions for fear of assault. The definition of "older" is a little different, of course, but I'm not convinced that the learning attitudes were so different, say, 40 years ago.
Author:  Bonobo [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
This goes way OT now but I just want to mention that, when I (*1957) was a child, corporal punishment was normal—in Germany!—at least in my family and all families I knew at that time. No days without slap and no week without some harder beating on the butt with a stick, ruler, or a wooden cooking spoon. It was only in the mid-60s, when my parents had their first contact with modern psychotherapeutical ideas, that they refrained from physical violence, and today I know how hard this fight with their inner demons must have been.

<edit>

Added the country, otherwise this wouldn’t be very informative ;-)

</edit>
Author:  tchan001 [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
rpchuang wrote:
Is 200 the number of books required to reach 6dan? I thought my library of 50 Go books was sufficient.:(

Looks like I have a long way to go..:)

Trust me, there is a difference between the number of books you own and the level of your skills. But if you intend to own a large library of go books, you do have a long ways to go.
Author:  lemmata [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
billywoods wrote:
Also true of Westerners. I hear plenty of stories of people even in my parents' generation being terrified to ask what I would consider reasonable questions for fear of assault. The definition of "older" is a little different, of course, but I'm not convinced that the learning attitudes were so different, say, 40 years ago.
Bonobo wrote:
This goes way OT now but I just want to mention that, when I (*1957) was a child, corporal punishment was normal—in Germany!—at least in my family and all families I knew at that time. No days without slap and no week without some harder beating on the butt with a stick, ruler, or a wooden cooking spoon.
Thanks for sharing; it's nice to get some more perspective. I guess people are similar everywhere, even if they are not similar at the same point in time. I am sure there's some off-topic Hegelian argument to be made about this. :D
The wooden cooking spoon made me sentimental. My mother used to tell us that we should be honored to be educated by such a fancy spoon made in France.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
badukJr wrote:
Do you have a source that Westerns ask 'why?' more than Asians when presented with a problem? I mentor young researchers and of course many are Asian. However, asking 'why?' seems to vary more on an individual level than cultural. I honestly didn't notice a marked difference. The only thing that stands out is my most bullheaded 'Why?' askers were always Asian, always going until we ended up at first principle physics.

For both Asian and Westerners, the ones who avoided asking 'why?' almost always did so because they didn't want to appear stupid.


Nothing specific. In a general context, I think it is not denied, nor particularly controversial, that there are differences between western and eastern approaches to teaching, and differences between those cultures in general. For some general research, I would recommend taking a look at e.g. http://geert-hofstede.com/countries.html

In a go specific context, lemmata has given the example of Yilun Yang here, and Bill Spight mentions the experience of Jiang Jujo in another thread. Of course, the western tendency to ask "why?" more often in this context might very well be related to the fact that westerners taking pro lessons are far more likely to be go enthusiast, rather than casual players, because of the difference in how widely the game is known and played.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
'Why' has a special status in English. Children learn very early that it is the most efficient way to wind up grown-ups ("You have to eat your porridge." "Why?" "So you'll become big and strong." "Why?" "So you can become a famous go player." "Why?" and so on ad infinitum). Older students, especially males trying to impress the girls in class, then pick up the meme that asking the 'why' question makes you sound both rebellious and sage. By the time you are working for a living, asking 'why' is a good way to succeed in business but a poor way to get along with a boss if you have one. By the time you are old and grey the question becomes a plaintive one. In short, the word 'why' is a very big part of our lives.

This is quite different from, say, Japanese. A dictionary may tell you that 'naze' corresponds to 'why', but in practice you would often use softer or more explicit modes of asking. Such as dou shite, dou iu wake de, nan no tame ni, dou desu ka, etc. Circumlocutions with no 'why' word at all may be used (e.g. 'Why not let him do as he pleases? - Kare ni suki na you ni sasetara ii ja nai ka). None of these variants indicate lack of moral fibre.

In such circumstances, if a Japanese expert says, "I think you have to do this" and you ask in English "why", he is apt to be confused or even flustered. Do you mean 'for what reason is that best?' or 'how did you come to that conclusion?' or 'what's that got to do with the price of fish?' or 'I don't care what your answer is, I'm just showing you off by putting you on the spot". Not getting the answer you want may not be his fault. And look at how many young native English speakers muck up 'Wherefore art thou Romeo?' Even when the teacher explains 'wherefore' means 'why', Shakespeare's sentence usually has to be explained even further (i.e. it's not that he's a Romeo but that he's a Montague - and you probably have to explain even that to half the class).

In short, building a case on 'why' won't take you very far.
Author:  Alguien [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
John Fairbairn wrote:
In such circumstances, if a Japanese expert says, "I think you have to do this" and you ask in English "why", he is apt to be confused or even flustered. Do you mean 'for what reason is that best?' or 'how did you come to that conclusion?' or 'what's that got to do with the price of fish?' or 'I don't care what your answer is, I'm just showing you off by putting you on the spot". Not getting the answer you want may not be his fault. And look at how many young native English speakers muck up 'Wherefore art thou Romeo?' Even when the teacher explains 'wherefore' means 'why', Shakespeare's sentence usually has to be explained even further (i.e. it's not that he's a Romeo but that he's a Montague - and you probably have to explain even that to half the class).

In short, building a case on 'why' won't take you very far.


There is always a more precise way of asking 'Why'. However, there is also a more precise way of saying almost anything, so the decision of which level of precision is the correct balance between openness and precision is arbitrary and socio-cultural.

There is nothing wrong with going for the fastest and most open:
- 'why'
instead of the more precise, but quite slower to express:
- 'Probably due to my rank, although I can't be sure of the reasons by precisely the same lack of strength, I am not able to read more than two or three moves in a game of the complexity of the one we are dealing with; taking into account that in this case I use "complexity" to express my perceived difficulty of evaluating the separation of enclosed territories and dame areas, if such thing exist, of which I can't be sure. This lack of reading ability makes me wonder: "is the reason of your suggested move - that must most probably be correct, if we assume that your rank is based, among other skills, on your reading strength - a conclusion in a number of moves beyond my skill range? Or is it a collateral effect that, although present in a shorter number of moves, still I am not able to observe due to other deficiencies in my go skillset."


There is an additional advantage of 'why' that's especially useful when children use it. Any other way of forming the question will add criteria to the answer that the person answering might not want there and is forced to remove.
e.g:
Q-'why P7?' A-'Because it gives the best thickness to white in sente.'
compared to:
Q-'wouldn't P8 also kill?" A-'Killing is not the objective. P7 gives the best thickness to white in sente.'


'Why' is better than a more precise question that implies, in the process of becoming precise, assumptions that result false. Thus, 'why' is the humblest question. It says 'I don't understand your last assertion and I don't presume to know the origin of my ignorance.'
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Alguien wrote:
Thus, 'why' is the humblest question.
Not necessarily. It depends a great deal on the context and the tone of voice.
In some cases, it can be a very arrogant and confrontational question.
In some other cases, it can be a very stupid question.
And yes, in some cases, it can be a very humble question. :)
Author:  tchan001 [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
Student: Why do I lose?
Teacher: Because you haven't completed enough tsumego?
Student: Why do you think I haven't completed enough tsumego?
Teacher: Because you lose.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
To a professional, in many situations, the question of "why?" is a nonsense question. They just gave you the correct answer. E.g:

What should I play here?
Move A is the correct move here.
Why?
Uhhh, because it is better than the other moves?

An analogy would be if someone asked you for directions, then after you've given them, they ask why:

How do I get to the theater?
Take the first left, drive on until you cross the rail road tracks, then go right.
Why?
Uhhh, because that's the shortest route to the theater?
Author:  daal [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
HermanHiddema wrote:
To a professional, in many situations, the question of "why?" is a nonsense question. They just gave you the correct answer. E.g:

What should I play here?
Move A is the correct move here.
Why?
Uhhh, because it is better than the other moves?

An analogy would be if someone asked you for directions, then after you've given them, they ask why:

How do I get to the theater?
Take the first left, drive on until you cross the rail road tracks, then go right.
Why?
Uhhh, because that's the shortest route to the theater?

The difference being that "shortest route" is defined solely by distance, whereas "better move" must take a larger number of factors into account, and it's not immaterial which of those are relevant.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
daal wrote:
The difference being that "shortest route" is defined solely by distance, whereas "better move" must take a larger number of factors into account, and it's not immaterial which of those are relevant.
The better move is simply the one that gives you more points at the end of the game. But the game tree is so huge that it is impossible to prove any move better than any other. Professional judgement of what is better is, for a large part, instinct and reading. There is often no simple theoretical reason why the move is better, it's better because their instincts tell them it is.

If you give directions, you similarly don't consider every possible route in your head. You've got an instinctive idea, based on your experience in navigating the area, of what the shortest route probably is.
Author:  billywoods [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
HermanHiddema wrote:
An analogy would be if someone asked you for directions

Don't forget that, sometimes, when we ask "why?", we're not asking for solutions to one particular problem, but instead rules of thumb or guidelines or nuggets of intuition that might guide us towards being able to solve future problems of similar sorts. We're asking things like "why, out of the 361 possible intersections on the go board, were your eyes drawn towards looking at this one first?". We're looking for a heuristic for finding answers, not just a single answer that we can confirm. Give a man a fish...
Author:  zslane [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Differences between Western and Asian Books
So the implication is that asking for heuristics or insights into a professional's instinctive and intuitive process is pointless. Said professional is not necessarily equipped to explain how he arrived at "the best move" or enumerate the factors that went into that decision. Asking for information that is not explicable may be regarded as disrespectful.

Whether this is cultural or not, the lesson seems to be: Be careful who you accept as a "teacher" because you may not get any insights beyond that which you gleen yourself from the basic data given to you ("this move is best"), and in fact, you may be regarded as not entitled to any (explanation or insight) given your inferior station as student.

Asking for deeper explanation is not an act of rebellion against authority. But in a culture where learning is meant to occur through osmosis, by merely being in the presence of masters delivering opaque "wisdom", it would likely seem that way and not be terribly welcome.
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