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Crazy Stone Software
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Author:  txcpa [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Crazy Stone Software
I recently bought the Champion Go app for my Android phone, and I'm wondering if anyone has played the PC version called Crazy Stone 2011. They both use the Crazy Stone go engine, which is supposed to be one of the best AI programs for Go.

I've found the Android game to be very enjoyable, but I'm wondering if the PC version is any good. I would love to have the game available on my desktop PC, but the program is pretty expensive at $60 USD. In addition, the website doesn't give much information about its features.

I tried the Smart Go free evaluation for PC, but I'm not sure if I like the confusing program interface. The plethora of problems and encyclopedia of actual games are really amazing, but I didn't enjoy the experience playing to AI.

So, has anyone tried Crazy Stone 2011? Does it contain any extra features (such as problems to solve, tutorials) like Smart Go does? I'm really more interested in a program that plays very well, but I certainly don't mind if it contains some of the cool extras that Smart Go does.
Author:  judicata [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
First, I really like SmartGo for searching databases and analyzing games. If you primarily want to play games against the computer, though, the engine isn't one of the strongest.

I have Crazy Stone for the PC. The interface is simple, but inflexible. There are limited options for resizing the board: there are 3 sizes, and it restricts your options depending on the screen size. I find the result is too small. For example my laptop's resolution is 1366x768, and Crazy Stone will not allow me to select the 1024x768 size, so I'm stuck with 800x600. I can elaborate later if this seems important to you (I've described this in another post, too). [EDIT: see post below about screen size]

I really like the Crazy Stone engine itself. As I recall, it is somewhere around my strength (KGS 3k) on level 6 or 7 (10 being strongest). You can adjust its play strength on a sliding scale. It will also load games, graph the game situation (who it thinks is ahead), and give hints. But there are no problems, no options for database navigation, etc. But I don't regret buying it. It's a nice engine.

1st EDIT: See this thread here. Many Faces of Go also has a strong engine with many more options (problems, joseki, etc.). In my humble opinion, MFOG's interface isn't as slick and polished as Crazy Stone's, but it is more practical. I still prefer SmartGo for basically everything except playing against a computer--working with some of the options may be confusing at first, but it makes more sense after tinkering with it.

2nd EDIT May 21, 2012: According to their website, Unbalance (the distributor of Crazy Stone) now requires users to have an active internet connection EACH TIME Crazy Stone is started. Based on this onerous policy, I strongly discourage anyone from "purchasing" it. (And "purchase" in this case is more akin to a subscription that the other side can cancel.)

3rd EDIT May 31, 2012: As noted on Unbalance's website (and reported by Remi), Crazy Stone 2012 now requires users to register only once. I applaud Unbalance for ceasing to require user verification every time the program is used. And I withdraw my last update, although I leave it for posterity.
Author:  oren [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
SmartGo is well worth learning for the database capabilities. I use that all the time to match up fuseki/joseki and find similar pro games to study from.

I haven't really played with many AI programs, since I can usually find a game online.
Author:  Mivo [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
judicata wrote:
I really like the Crazy Stone engine itself. As I recall, it is somewhere around my strength (KGS 3k) on level 6 or 7 (10 being strongest). You can adjust its play strength on a sliding scale. It will also load games, graph the game situation (who it thinks is ahead), and give hints.


Does it provide information with the hints, or does it just highlight an intersection where it would have played? Does this work with imported games, too? I like using MFoG12 for going over my own games, and I wonder if the PC version of CrazyStone could be used for this purpose as well.
Author:  judicata [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
Mivo wrote:
Does it provide information with the hints, or does it just highlight an intersection where it would have played? Does this work with imported games, too? I like using MFoG12 for going over my own games, and I wonder if the PC version of CrazyStone could be used for this purpose as well.



When CrazyStone gives a hint, it is just an intersection. You can load your own games and have it play a move (or give a hint) for any position. I haven't used either program extensively, but MFOG seems to have more features in this regard. I like having different engines anyway :).
Author:  judicata [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
Wanted to add a quick update on the screen size issue I mentioned above. If you hide the task bar, CrazyStone will allow you to select the largest window size up to the resolution of your screen. As I mentioned earlier, CrazyStone had disabled screen sizes equal to my resolution.

Example: the "medium" size setting in CS is 1024x768. My laptop's screen is 1366x768. But CrazyStone only permitted me to select the "small" size setting (800x600). After hiding the task bar, the medium size is allowed.

This is still annoying, but at least I can get a playable size for a 19x19 board on my laptop (and a great large board on my external monitor).
Author:  txcpa [ Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
Well, I've really been enjoying having this on my Samsung Galaxy phone. Given that it is a very good app, and that I can play it anywhere I have my phone with me, I will probably refrain from buying the PC version, for now. It sounds like it is very similar to the version for smart phones, but costs much more.

By the way, does anyone know at what level the Crazy Stone AI plays, at the various levels (1-10)? I'm referring specifically to games on a 19x19 board, with no handicap stones. I can beat the computer on level 1 without any problems, but it seems to become significantly more difficult on level 2. In fact, I still haven't been able to win a 19x19 game on level 2. I'm still pretty new to Go, but I get frustrated at getting constantly whooped at such a seemingly low level. Perhaps my expectations of myself are a bit high?

I don’t have an official rating, but to give you an idea of where I might stand: I’ve played perhaps 10-20 games on the full-sized board (against the computer), have read Janice Kim’s Learn to Play Go, Volumes 1-3, worked through some of the Graded Go Problems for Beginners, and have read some small parts to books such as The Second Book of Go, and Opening Theory Made Easy. I have a few other Go books on the book case waiting to be read.

I thought that I read somewhere that Crazy Stone (bonobot) recently defeated a profession 5d on KGS without any handicap stones, so it sounds like this is a very strong program. I haven’t figured out if I should keep practicing on the lower level on which I can win, or if I should keep playing the stronger AI on level 2. I’m hoping that I can get my neighbor to play against me on a real board sometime soon. He has not played the game, but is interested in it.
Author:  illluck [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
I doubt any software can provide a challenge to any pro in even games. It was probably an even game win against KGS 5d :p
Author:  badukJr [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
The strength varies depending on phone hardware. Right now you seem to read too many books. Play games against humans and get them reviewed by humans. When you are starting out, playing a teaching game with someone stronger every other game will help a lot.
Author:  txcpa [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
illluck wrote:
I doubt any software can provide a challenge to any pro in even games. It was probably an even game win against KGS 5d :p


It sounded strange to me too, but here is a link to the page where I read about it, along with the actual game--maybe I'm misunderstanding something about the player, but it does say "human" dan player. Perhaps this is an amateur-level 5 dan player?

http://gosensations.com/?id=2&server_id=1&new_id=1093

Perhaps I do read too many books as one of you mentioned, but I actually enjoy reading about Go. I enjoy other board games too (mainly abstract), but it's a huge plus for me that Go has a plethora of wonderful literature. Maybe I'm just relying too much on my reading translating into immediate play improvement.

To be honest, I have been somewhat intimidated by playing a human opponent on KGS, regardless of the player's level. However, I wouldn't feel intimidated by playing another person face-to-face at a real board, even a much better player, as strange as that may seem. But, of course, it's much harder to find such opponents. A teaching game sounds like a great idea to transition myself into feeling comfortable playing online.
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
Yeah, that's an amateur five dan. Dinerchtein estimates that a professional can still win with a 4-5 stone handicap in that post.
Author:  oren [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
txcpa wrote:
To be honest, I have been somewhat intimidated by playing a human opponent on KGS, regardless of the player's level. However, I wouldn't feel intimidated by playing another person face-to-face at a real board, even a much better player, as strange as that may seem. But, of course, it's much harder to find such opponents. A teaching game sounds like a great idea to transition myself into feeling comfortable playing online.


You should get over the intimidation factor and play people. You can probably find some opponents in L19 room on KGS if you want a smaller group. It's much better than playing bots.
Author:  Mike Novack [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
"By the way, does anyone know at what level the Crazy Stone AI plays, at the various levels (1-10)? I'm referring specifically to games on a 19x19 board, with no handicap stones. I can beat the computer on level 1 without any problems, but it seems to become significantly more difficult on level 2. In fact, I still haven't been able to win a 19x19 game on level 2. I'm still pretty new to Go, but I get frustrated at getting constantly whooped at such a seemingly low level. Perhaps my expectations of myself are a bit high?"

Actually an important question (with related questions) for which we haven't seen an answer.

a) How far apart are the levels 1-10 in relative terms?
b) How strong would the top level be on various hardware? Realistic hardware a "user" might possess, not a cluster of workstations. Instead of specific devices perhaps best defined in terms of number of cores and speed.
c) Does "a" change drasticly with "b"? In other words, is the relative distance between levels in terms of stones not very dependent on the hardware? Or extremely dependent.

It is a major feature that one of these products offers a wide range of MCTS playing strength.


OK -- I now want to jump onto a different topic. I agree that the best way to learn for most of us is simply to play as many games as possible against humans. Not too much book and not too much playing against the computer. But it isn't true for everybody. There are some few of us who actually do better first learning concepts from books, etc. So if it appears that some beginner has learned about go, began learning from books explaining concepts and showing example games with comments, etc. and has "come in" at the low teens, don't advise them "you are doing it all wrong, simply play as many games as you can". They are among the few of us who learn differently. I was perhaps 10-12 before I ever played another human* or even a machine. Mind there is a downside to this, a tradeoff in how we learn. Give me a device but no manual and I'm helpless while most other people can figure out how the device works by trial and error pushing buttons and clicking on icons which seem to be meaningful to them but incomprehensible to me. People who have this sort of learning style need an opponent always somewhat stronger than they are and for them playing against the machine may be better than playing agaisnt human oponents who are not stronger than they are. Not ideal, but it may not be easy or even possible to get lots of games against a human 1-2 stones stronger.

* OK, one or two games but they were weak players who couldn't do more than tell me that I was clearly much stronger than they were.
Author:  hyperpape [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
Mike, I think what you say is true, but when someone says "intimidated", I think it's a good time for gentle encouragement.
Author:  Mef [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
txcpa wrote:
By the way, does anyone know at what level the Crazy Stone AI plays, at the various levels (1-10)? I'm referring specifically to games on a 19x19 board, with no handicap stones. I can beat the computer on level 1 without any problems, but it seems to become significantly more difficult on level 2. In fact, I still haven't been able to win a 19x19 game on level 2. I'm still pretty new to Go, but I get frustrated at getting constantly whooped at such a seemingly low level. Perhaps my expectations of myself are a bit high?



I'd estimate that CrazyStone level 10 on a 19x19 running on a dual core 1 Ghz processor (in my case a galaxy tab) is about KGS 3k
Author:  judicata [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
Mef wrote:

I'd estimate that CrazyStone level 10 on a 19x19 running on a dual core 1 Ghz processor (in my case a galaxy tab) is about KGS 3k


It is definitely weaker on my iPad 2, though I'm not sure how much. The strongest level I've played is 10 as white, no komi (1 stone handicap for the computer), and I didn't have any problems beating it.
Author:  Mike Novack [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
Mef wrote:
I'd estimate that CrazyStone level 10 on a 19x19 running on a dual core 1 Ghz processor (in my case a galaxy tab) is about KGS 3k


Interesting.

The implication of this is that the machines we could expect to be available to end users are "not enough machine" for Crazy Stone (below the amount of crunch power at which performance is dropping off rapidly).

OK, let me phrase my question in a different way. Has anybody experienced Crazy Stone playing at about 1 dan KGS? How much machine in terms of cores x GHz did that require. Think of that as the "unit" so a four core 3 GHZ machine would be 12 units of crunch as opposed to Mef's example of a 2 unit galaxy tab.

I don't think a the moment a developer of a program for commercial distribution could expect any end users to have more than a 12 unit machine (a workstation or high end desktop/laptop like an avid "gamer" might have). And most of us have much less machine than that.
Author:  judicata [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
Mike Novack wrote:
OK, let me phrase my question in a different way. Has anybody experienced Crazy Stone playing at about 1 dan KGS? How much machine in terms of cores x GHz did that require.


Based on playing a handful of games with different handicaps, I think the Windows version on my machine runs about KGS 2d, give or take (it is hard for me to tell precisely). Running on a 2-core (4 thread) 2.5ghz processor (Intel i5 2520m).
Author:  Mike Novack [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
OK, that sounds more like it.

We seem to be having some contradictory reports. Or what is more likely, people overestimating the power of the processor in their small tablets. etc.

For reference, the machine Judicata has described would be a "typical" current machine with about half the crunch of a really powerful desktop (say with an i7-2600 in it). And about twice the power of any of mine which are from what was current five+ years ago.
Author:  judicata [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crazy Stone Software
Mike Novack wrote:
For reference, the machine Judicata has described would be a "typical" current machine with about half the crunch of a really powerful desktop (say with an i7-2600 in it). And about twice the power of any of mine which are from what was current five+ years ago.


Specifically, a current model Lenovo Thinkpad X220 (a mobile laptop), which is the first Thinkpad I've truly loved (but for the aspect ratio) since Lenovo took over for IBM. :geek:
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