Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it

[hyperpape]

I still don't see leaving the game as the right option. If someone is being insulting, then the correct response is to tell an admin. If someone is being annoying but within the terms of service, then you negatively impact the experience of the other person by leaving his game, while ignoring him and finishing the game means no more annoyance. I still don't see a situation where the "correct" in my view choice is to just leave the game. Also, I've never actually seen anyone escape in this type of situation ...

Well, you're just not annoying enough then!

[Charlie]

I have a super-dodgy African Internet connection and frequently run into connection trouble while playing on KGS and I find that the vague escaper policy is actually a bad thing - I fear acquiring an escaper-flag on my account so I nearly always resign games which I cannot resume immediately. KGS users typically do not wait for you to return if you disconnect because they assume you escaped so these games are usually lost.

Contrast this to IGS: I know exactly how much time I have to connect via a backup connection (usually my phone) before my game is dead. IGS users know exactly how long they will have to wait to see if you're coming back and, typically, they wait. I have never lost a game on IGS due to a single connection drop. (I have lost some due to repeated connection issues - days when you're lucky if you're still connected two moves later.)

Around 7 kyu, KGS, I find very few escapers.

If wms intends us to escape rude or offensive players, he's loony. I value my account more than I value what my opponent has to say. KGS should have a "rage quit" button (perhaps more tactfully named) which resigns the game, submits it to an administrator for moderation and adds your opponent to your block-list. The administrator would review what was said and, deeming it offensive, delete the game from your record retrospectively and ban the offensive user.

[labrys]

I have a super-dodgy African Internet connection and frequently run into connection trouble while playing on KGS and I find that the vague escaper policy is actually a bad thing - I fear acquiring an escaper-flag on my account so I nearly always resign games which I cannot resume immediately.

I'm in the same boat with a dodgy Indian connection, and used to resign games that people wouldn't resume to avoid getting an escaper flag, as I'd hate to lose the games that people will resume just because of yet another powercut killing my internet. Unfortunately a mod took exception to this and de-ranked me for a year for it, and when I tried to explain I was told the rating system was too fragile.

So now it's only a matter of time before I get a flagged as an escaper, as for every game people will resume, there are at least 2 that are refused. It's pretty aggravating, and not a problem I've found on any other server.

[Kirby]

Usually when this discussion comes up, people talk about how KGS helps people with bad Internet connections to be able to resume games, and also "deals with" escapers by giving them losses after they've escaped a lot.

There is evidence for both of these:
* Yes, you can resume a game you got disconnected from.
* Yes, after a certain number of escapes within a given time period, you do get losses.

Furthermore, there is evidence that the current KGS system works well enough to have users playing on it every day.

But when I argue about this topic, I am not really arguing against any of these points. Rather, what I am arguing for is what I believe to be ideal: the server should ideally provide the ability to play a game where escapers do not exist (where an escaper is defined as someone that leaves a rated game without coming back, and does not get a loss against their rank).

Evidence for the popularity of a system that has no escapers also exists: lots of people play on Tygem.

So ideally, the software could allow for both the option of playing a "resumable game" and for playing one with no possible escaping (as defined above).

I feel there is evidence that users would like such a system: people always argue about the escaper policies in forums like this one!

tldr: Ideally KGS would support a "no-escaper" option in addition to the resumable game feature. Despite that, practically speaking, KGS is a fine place to play.

[hyperpape]

So ideally, the software could allow for both the option of playing a "resumable game" and for playing one with no possible escaping (as defined above).

Wms does that. He calls it "Tygem".

[daal]

I am arguing for is what I believe to be ideal: the server should ideally provide the ability to play a game where escapers do not exist

It just seems unproductive to argue about this happening on KGS. Overwhelming evidence suggests that the decision makers are satisfied with KGS's escaper policy. KGS doesn't want an ideal system as you define it; it wants the one it has, and apparently, it's not a prohibitively negative factor otherwise it wouldn't be the most popular server for those who like to while away their time between games chatting. Speaking of which, why don't we change the subject and talk about the ideal KGS admin.

[Kirby]

I am arguing for is what I believe to be ideal: the server should ideally provide the ability to play a game where escapers do not exist

It just seems unproductive to argue about this happening on KGS. Overwhelming evidence suggests that the decision makers are satisfied with KGS's escaper policy. KGS doesn't want an ideal system as you define it; it wants the one it has, and apparently, it's not a prohibitively negative factor otherwise it wouldn't be the most popular server for those who like to while away their time between games chatting. Speaking of which, why don't we change the subject and talk about the ideal KGS admin.

Sure, I think there's plenty of evidence that things won't change. That doesn't necessarily imply that the decision makers personally feel that the system is ideal. I feel it is more of the fact that they do not feel it is worth the effort to change.

I disagree that it's not productive to discuss what would be ideal. How can sharing your thoughts be negative?

As a sidenote, KGS is not the most popular server for those that like to chat - it is the most popular English-based server (and it doesn't have much competition in that category).

[Kirby]

So ideally, the software could allow for both the option of playing a "resumable game" and for playing one with no possible escaping (as defined above).

Wms does that. He calls it "Tygem".

To be sure, I use that option periodically

But it's not part of the software. It's like if I developed a text editor that didn't allow for deleting characters. People could complain that the software didn't allow for them to delete characters. I could always reply, "you can delete characters - just use Microsoft Word."

The point is, my software would be better if it had the functionality my users found to be essential.

[daal]

Sure, I think there's plenty of evidence that things won't change. That doesn't necessarily imply that the decision makers personally feel that the system is ideal. I feel it is more of the fact that they do not feel it is worth the effort to change.

That's not my impression. From what I've read, they don't think the system is ideal, but they do see it as the best compromise.

I disagree that it's not productive to discuss what would be ideal. How can sharing your thoughts be negative?

There's nothing wrong with discussing an ideal escaper policy, but if that discussion is about changing something that won't change, then your thoughts are being used inefficiently.

The point is, my software would be better if it had the functionality my users found to be essential.

Essential, yes - but another escaper policy isn't essential - it's just something that some users would prefer and others wouldn't.

As a sidenote, KGS is not the most popular server for those that like to chat - it is the most popular English-based server (and it doesn't have much competition in that category).

Really? I've never seen as much use of the chatting functions on any other server. As to the competition, it remains to be seen if Kaya will provide it, but perhaps ideas on an ideal escaper policy for Kaya would be less likely to fall on deaf ears.

[Kirby]

daal, what I'm suggesting is adding an option that some users would benefit from, and others wouldn't care about. This adds to the system's complexity, but given the number of people that complain about escapers, it'd be a utilized feature.

Regarding server popularity, you are only considering english-based servers. Try using Tygem's desktop client, and you will aee the volume of chat. Yeah, it is not in English mostly, but that's beside the point.

[daal]

Regarding server popularity, you are only considering english-based servers. Try using Tygem's desktop client, and you will aee the volume of chat. Yeah, it is not in English mostly, but that's beside the point.

I wasn't only talking about English servers. When I log onto Tygem, what I usually read is something like betting game in room x or soandso is teaching in room y. Other than that, I've often seen someone just deliberately flooding the chat box - but then again, the English client doesn't let you see or write asian characters, so I guess I'm probably missing something.

[Kirby]

Regarding server popularity, you are only considering english-based servers. Try using Tygem's desktop client, and you will aee the volume of chat. Yeah, it is not in English mostly, but that's beside the point.

I wasn't only talking about English servers. When I log onto Tygem, what I usually read is something like betting game in room x or soandso is teaching in room y. Other than that, I've often seen someone just deliberately flooding the chat box - but then again, the English client doesn't let you see or write asian characters, so I guess I'm probably missing something.

It probably makes a difference if you can see the Asian characters, yes. Added to that, there are several different servers you can log into, and you need a paid account to be guaranteed access to some of the more popular servers. The number of users is magnitudes larger than on KGS, but this is likely at least partially due to the popularity of go in Asia.

Anyway, all the talk about escapers is just hypothetical to me anyway. Like I said above, practically speaking, KGS is a fun server to play on. It's just that, to me, if we have the concept of ranked games with time limits, the idea of allowing for a disconnect without penalty just doesn't compute. It's like saying that 2+2 is five.

Despite this, escapers are infrequent enough for me that this is like arguing about the color of the green canvas.

[adsfadfaf]

escapers are very common against me. The additional effect of this is that I worry about people escaping when I am gaining a lead, this takes a lot of fun out of playing for me.

I am confused at all the people mentioning that they have dodgy internet connections: I was suggesting an option that would allow games to be forfeit 1 day or 1 week or so after a disconnection. This means you could still reconnect to finish the game, or not select the option if you think you might take longer than a week to resume it.

I guess nothing will happen about it which is a shame, it's too bad that the idea of having an option seems to be confused by most people so the idea has got very little support. Let me reiterate: My suggestion would have no negative effect on people who enjoy the current system, and it would have a positive effect on those who have problems with escapers.

[Kirby]

escapers are very common against me. The additional effect of this is that I worry about people escaping when I am gaining a lead, this takes a lot of fun out of playing for me.

I am confused at all the people mentioning that they have dodgy internet connections: I was suggesting an option that would allow games to be forfeit 1 day or 1 week or so after a disconnection. This means you could still reconnect to finish the game, or not select the option if you think you might take longer than a week to resume it.

I guess nothing will happen about it which is a shame, it's too bad that the idea of having an option seems to be confused by most people so the idea has got very little support. Let me reiterate: My suggestion would have no negative effect on people who enjoy the current system, and it would have a positive effect on those who have problems with escapers.

Don't worry. I support your idea

[hyperpape]

So ideally, the software could allow for both the option of playing a "resumable game" and for playing one with no possible escaping (as defined above).

Wms does that. He calls it "Tygem".

To be sure, I use that option periodically

But it's not part of the software.

And if it was, it wouldn't be

That is, if there's an option to have games with strict handling of disconnects, then you end up with one population of players who plays that way the vast majority of the time, and another population that plays the opposite way the vast majority of the time. Or maybe one wins out and the de facto standard is that KGS stays the way it is, or that it becomes like Tygem. Or worse, you could have confusion where tons of people don't understand the options and don't know what they're getting.

I really think that each server needs to pick its policy.