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Anyone else have a problem with this?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=11750		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Anyone else have a problem with this?
I very rarely have time to devote more than a few minutes to playing go. That is why I play predominantly on DGS. But once or twice a month I have an hour to spare and put up a game on KGS with time limits such as 1/10 Canadian. Early this year I was so busy I did not play at all and only logged on to preserve my account. (Not DrStraw, btw. My playing account is anonymous.) I lost the last game I played back before this break. This is causing problems.

So here is the problem. Because I have so few game it seems that every time I play a game I get a solid rank. A few days ago I had a solid 3d. But today I logged on and found I am 3d?. This has happened over and over again at whatever level I am at. I play a game, get a solid rank and a few days later it has a ? on it. The ? itself does no bother me as I long ago quit worrying about rank, but it is extremely annoying as most of my game challenges are refused on those rare occasions when I want to play. And setting up a game is even worse as it gets relegated to bottom and no one wants to accept it.

There are times when I just feel like playing a real-time game without spending age trying to find one. But this is becoming extremely annoying to me. Sorry about the rant, but I just needed to get it off my chest.
Author:  Bantari [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
I am in a very similar situation, and so, not surprisingly, I have had some very similar thoughts at one point, some time back.

How I overcame my frustration was to try to come up with the system which would remedy the "problem". I could not really come up with a satisfactory idea which would be less irritating for me and still uphold the overall ranking strategy of KGS... so I just realized the problem was me, my playing pattern, and as long as I don't change that it will cause me some frustration.

These days, more often than not, I just play either somewhere else, where people are not so rank-greedy, and/or within a close-knit group of friends who know me well enough and the ? by my rank (or no rank at all when it expires) doesn't bother them very much.

In your case, you can always play as DrStraw - and I bet enough people know you by that name that you will always find willing opponents regardless of what rank you are or aren't.

Other than this, I am not sure what to tell you.
Good rant, though. ;)
Author:  Boidhre [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
Automatch (if you could accept playing on the preset time limits) is the best away around the "?" problem. It's only if you get a "full" ? that even this option becomes limited.
Author:  DJLLAP [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
You could choose to simply "unrank" your account. I see many players on KGS that choose not to have a rank - some of them quite strong. I have never done this to my account, so I can't say that people are extremely keen to play these kind of accounts, but it doesn't hurt to try.
Author:  Javaness2 [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
The rating mechanism hasn't changed since you were an admin :)
Author:  tiger314 [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
Since the problem is caused by KGS calculating rank only from games played in the last 6 months, the easiest solution seems to be to play a lot of games right now to make it easier for the server to determine your rank (otherwise it has too little info to rank you). One way might be to take an afternoon/evening and play a lot of ranked blitz. Even if you are not a blitz player and lose most games, several ranked games should stabilise your rank for months and help you to solve your problem.
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
Quote:
You could choose to simply "unrank" your account. I see many players on KGS that choose not to have a rank - some of them quite strong. I have never done this to my account, so I can't say that people are extremely keen to play these kind of accounts, but it doesn't hurt to try.

I already have one unranked account ("DrStraw"). It is impossible to get games with it because of that. This is why I have a ranked account for actual playing.

Quote:
The rating mechanism hasn't changed since you were an admin

Never said it had. It was a problem back then and still is a problem now.

Quote:
Since the problem is caused by KGS calculating rank only from games played in the last 6 months, the easiest solution seems to be to play a lot of games right now to make it easier for the server to determine your rank (otherwise it has too little info to rank you). One way might be to take an afternoon/evening and play a lot of ranked blitz. Even if you are not a blitz player and lose most games, several ranked games should stabilise your rank for months and help you to solve your problem.

I already said I don't have time to do this. And I don't like blitz anyway - it is basically a random outcome.
Author:  oren [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
I almost always have a ? rank but get matches on automatch fairly quickly. It doesn't bother me.
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
oren wrote:
I almost always have a ? rank but get matches on automatch fairly quickly. It doesn't bother me.


None of the automatch time limits fit my schedule. They are all to slow for the time I have or too fast for a comfortable game.
Author:  yoyoma [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
DrStraw wrote:
oren wrote:
I almost always have a ? rank but get matches on automatch fairly quickly. It doesn't bother me.


None of the automatch time limits fit my schedule. They are all to slow for the time I have or too fast for a comfortable game.


What time settings do you usually use on KGS?
Author:  Kirby [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
I agree with Bantari - just play as DrStraw and people will play with you.

If you really can't get over the issue, just play on a different server - there are several options these days.
Author:  SpongeBob [ Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
Just play on Tygem, your rank will stay stable there. It is also the technically superior server (which is why I prefer it over KGS).
Author:  daal [ Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
SpongeBob wrote:
Just play on Tygem, your rank will stay stable there. It is also the technically superior server (which is why I prefer it over KGS).


Off topic, thus hidden.
How is it technically superior, and why does that make a difference? (not challenging, just curious)
Author:  SpongeBob [ Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
Off-topic response for daal:
On KGS there is the always present problem of lagging. Not on Tygem, where your stone is placed immediately, not after a response from the server reaches you. This makes for a whole different playing experience, imo. Another aspect is byo-yomi voice- and mouse-cursor-counting.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi SpongeBob,
SpongeBob wrote:
On KGS there is the always present problem of lagging. Not on Tygem, where your stone is placed immediately, not after a response from the server reaches you. This makes for a whole different playing experience, imo.
But that's an illusion, isn't it. No server can guarantee zero lag, because there are always intermediaries -- say, your ISP crashes; or any hiccup anywhere between your client and the server half the globe away -- so the author has to make a choice: either show the new move immediately on the client side, regardless of whether the move itself has actually reached the server, or, wait for the server response, then show the move.

Some people, like you, are happy to see the immediate placement of the move on your client, even if it takes a minute or longer to receive the server response. Even if it never reaches the server in the first place.

Another choice is to wait for the server response.
In this second option, if there is indeed a lag,
you find out about it sooner, because you experience the delay.

In the first option, you see your move immediately on your client,
but if there's a minute (or, infinite) delay,
you won't notice something has happened until later (could be much later).
You prefer this option.

So the issue here is not about the lag, which can happen
any time, anywhere, beyond the control of any client
Tygem or otherwise, but people's preferences for the UI.

Another approach, which I have never seen but maybe someone has already done it:
show the move immediately on the client side, and simultaneously show the server response; and if there is any lag at all, show the lag in real time.
So if the client does not receive a server response,
then start a stopwatch and display the lag, in real time.
If/when the client finally gets the server response,
then close and reset the stopwatch.
This seems to get the best of both worlds.
Author:  Bantari [ Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
@SpongeBob:
SpongeBob wrote:
Off-topic response for daal:
On KGS there is the always present problem of lagging. Not on Tygem, where your stone is placed immediately, not after a response from the server reaches you. This makes for a whole different playing experience, imo. Another aspect is byo-yomi voice- and mouse-cursor-counting.

Not sure any of that has anything to do with being "technologically superior." To me its user/programmer preference which options you implement or not, and how.
Do you even know what technology is Tygem based on? Just curious, since I don't have a clue.
And what is KGS Server? C? C++? Java? I don't remember...
Once we know, we can discuss.
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
Somebody expressed their preferred server - and it wasn't KGS. I think we all know where this thread is headed! Take cover before the flame war ignites!
Author:  calantir [ Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
You could also try OGS. Once you clear your initial provisional games, you're non-provisional for good, no matter how infrequently you play. I'd be happy to clear the provisional games for you since your rank is well established (if you're AGA 4d or so, you're probably OGS 2d). The only drawback is that it might take you a bit longer to find a game on OGS than on KGS, as the dan population is still growing.
Author:  PeterHB [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Hi SpongeBob,
SpongeBob wrote:
On KGS there is the always present problem of lagging. Not on Tygem, where your stone is placed immediately, not after a response from the server reaches you. This makes for a whole different playing experience, imo.
But that's an illusion, isn't it. No server can guarantee zero lag, because there are always intermediaries -- say, your ISP crashes; or any hiccup anywhere between your client and the server half the globe away -- so the author has to make a choice: either show the new move immediately on the client side, regardless of whether the move itself has actually reached the server, or, wait for the server response, then show the move.

Some people, like you, are happy to see the immediate placement of the move on your client, even if it takes a minute or longer to receive the server response. Even if it never reaches the server in the first place.

Another choice is to wait for the server response.
In this second option, if there is indeed a lag,
you find out about it sooner, because you experience the delay.

In the first option, you see your move immediately on your client,
but if there's a minute (or, infinite) delay,
you won't notice something has happened until later (could be much later).
You prefer this option.

So the issue here is not about the lag, which can happen
any time, anywhere, beyond the control of any client
Tygem or otherwise, but people's preferences for the UI.

Another approach, which I have never seen but maybe someone has already done it:
show the move immediately on the client side, and simultaneously show the server response; and if there is any lag at all, show the lag in real time.
So if the client does not receive a server response,
then start a stopwatch and display the lag, in real time.
If/when the client finally gets the server response,
then close and reset the stopwatch.
This seems to get the best of both worlds.


This does seem to be a UI issue. My suggestion would be to show the stone placement in the client immediately, but with a spinning line on it. Then when the confirmation is received back from the server, remove the spinning line. i.e. trying to have the best of both worlds.
Author:  SpongeBob [ Fri May 01, 2015 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone else have a problem with this?
Continuation off-topic discussion :-)
You are right, EdLee, to some degree this is an illusion - the signal still has to go to the server and back (latest when my oppent has played his response). But this illusion works perfectly. You just never experience any lag and can click on the last second of your byo-yomi period. I would rather avoid that on KGS ;-). Maybe their servers do have a better response time than KGS's, too.
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