I tested KGS on three laptops. I was subletting that month, and when I moved out the problem disappeared in a day.

I still occasionally have lag, but it's hard to say whether it's memory, cpu, or spare bandwidth, because running torrents hogs all three of them at once.

yeah, I'm not saying that its not you isp. It could be. But for me it clearly wasn't.


haha... that's gotta be it

Just happened again. No lag the whole game until 10 seconds left in the last byo yomi in an even game I was winning against a 4k. I panicked, tried to log out and pushed the resign button by mistake in the same moment as my last stone fell into place.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Usually if you're lagging and you click on "server stats," it'll detect the lag and disconnect you immediately. If that doesn't work...go get a new computer/internet provider.

While looking for a similar experience I found this post.

I'm amazed at the number of wrong information displayed on this forum.

The lag on KGS is not caused by a bad connection on the client side. Nor is it a network or ISP problem. We live in 2012, my connection is extremely fast, getting contents from anywhere in the world at an amazing speed.

There seem to be a lot of KGS advocates here who tag any complaints as trolling.
These people should be ashamed to let the "lag victims" monitor their traffic or contact their ISP for a problem that comes from KGS.

The facts are:

-My connection is extremely fast
-When playing on KGS I make sure the traffic on my connection is at a minimum
-I never had any problem of disconnection or lagging on other 10 times busier servers around the world

Don't tell me my connection cannot handle a few additional bits with GO information.

The lag problem (since it doesn't only concern a couple of players in China) does come from KGS itself.

The client and server run on old technology that was awesome 10 years ago.

I would like to hear: "Yes, our server is not configured to handle so many connections and this causes lag for some users and thus results in a bad experience. This is our fault and we are working on the issue."

Until this is acknowledged and resolved I will play on modern servers and I suggest others to do the same.

If you're lagging, the server will never receive the "server stats" command, thus will not detect anything.

My ISP and computer are extremely fast and modern. I can get loads of data from anywhere in the world extremely fast. If someone needs to change stuff, it's KGS.

I am with sefo 100% on this. I saw the topic and thought I might find some news about the current problems KGS (not the net) is having. No such luck. I could only wonder, don't any of the responders actually play on KGS? Recently (I think this year is clearly worse than last year) the performance is terrible. I do not know whether 'lag' is the right term but it seems that what we are experiencing is a lack of response from the server. It is not limited to the end of the game nor is it every move, but naturally it is rather more salient when those last seconds are ticking away.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Hello,



I used to work for an IT vendor and was involved in the design/implementation of a fair bit of networking infrastructure. As a result, I'm somewhat familiar with networking issues. I'd like to understand your networking background, so that I can determine the level of knowledge which is the basis of your statements. Normally identifying the cause of networking issues can be quite complex, so I'm interested to learn how you arrived at your diagnosis.

Technically tcpip is almost 40 years so I would concede that kgs is running on an old technology.



Maybe you can post a screenshot of the result of the above command ?

This would prove the lag is caused by kgs like you claimed assuming there is no traffic shaping by your isp.

You can check your isp at http://wiki.vuze.com/w/Bad_ISPs for that.

Thank you for all your advice. I am myself working as a security analyst for a large multinational company and I have a deep knowledge of networking.

duckweed: tcpip is not involved in the discussion. I'm talking about kgs software.
I also see you've learned about tracert. Others might be impressed but again it has no place in this discussion.

BigDoug:


It's not complex. Generally when you use a 10 years old, custom made game server that is updated once in a while by a single developer, you must rewrite it from scratch to catch up with your server increased activity, make it more secure, faster...etc.

My diagnosis is simple and doesn't require any technical knowledge:

KGS lags (badly) on many modern systems from around the world. Said systems perform extremely well on other servers. The average internet user of 2012 transfers more data per second than during 100 kgs games. So why transferring a few bits of game data should be subject to so many problems?

Note the key points:
Small data transfer -> KGS = bad lag
Huge data transfer -> other servers = no problem whatsoever.

Only the worst customer service witnessing all the complaints above will ask the users to change hardware and Internet provider on the basis that the majority of users have no or few problems.

The problem probably comes from the server design, database access, game client, server hardware and bandwidth.

Acknowledge and look into it, but don't ask us to change whatever system we have. We are satisfied with the performance running anything but KGS.

You may also choose to ignore / ban / tag as troll the people who encounter this lag problem.
It has been your strategy until now and you still have a big user base. I guess you win.

To others getting lag problems, there are better alternatives to KGS. They need some getting used to but they are worth your while in terms of skill improvement and enjoyment of the game.

For what it's worth, KGS has been lagging these days for me as well...and I am on fiber.

That said, the Windows clients for Tygem and Oro are a step-and-a-half away from being malware and have their own problems. I do like that it is quite easy to find a game on those servers because they can handle more users. So I do acknowledge that being able to handle lots of users is important.

I am actually quite impressed that wms managed to code a client that has some features not found in other clients as well as features that are better implemented than they are in other clients. The platform independence is a huge plus for a Linux user like me as well. The flawless unicode support (somewhat problematic on Tygem) tells me that wms knows what he is doing. It's not just a Java thing. The Oro site has some text-based lectures that run in Java plug-ins and the text isn't proper unicode (same issue with Oro's Java client...Oro also has a native Windows client). It is one of those little things that reveal a lot about the programmer(s).

This leads me to conjecture that wms has outdated hardware or hardware that can't keep up with increasing loads.

I almost wish that Tygem would fire all their programmers and hire wms so that we could get wms' programming on Tygem server hardware.

I have had some experience working with software programmers in Korea, and I must say that, in my experience, they have a ton of bad habits.

This became a long rant but I guess I can state my most important thoughts.

1) I agree that KGS lags at times, even on the fastest Internet connection.
2) People should take your complaints seriously, and should not talk down to you. I am not quite sure if the KGS defenders are talking down to you, but they do seem to be a little defensive. Maybe they're just tired after a long day's work. Miscommunication happens
3) You should also understand that KGS needs to first weed out the obvious possibilities before they handle your complaint. The reason why tech support people first ask if your computer is plugged in is because a significant number of people forget to do that. That should not be taken as an insult.
4) wms is a probably a better programmer than everyone who works for Tygem/Oro combined, so please insult his hardware if you must, but don't insult his software!

edit: BigDoug's post from which I quoted a few sentences below has been deleted for some reason.



Are you seriously expecting a thesis on how KGS should handle server connections?
You're avoiding the question by insulting my knowledge.



You're giving arguments against yourself. You're basically saying:

"server design, database access, game client, server hardware and bandwidth DO have an impact on performance and they DO have an influence on lag but it's a separate problem"

Sorry but that's a big insult to my intelligence and I'm not going to argue about how big the impact of bad design is on server performance. You're finding excuses for a very simple issue that many servers face. And you put that responsibility on the users while you could simply acknowledge the problem.

By saying KGS works flawlessly and it's only the users' fault if there's lag, you're only hurting yourself. Acknowledge the problems and you will get help from the community rather than complains on random forums.

We know it's a huge amount of work to optimize a database and the client/server connections. We know it costs money to buy/rent a good server. But we are not expecting or forcing you to do it. We are not insulting you and the KGS developers. They've done an amazing work.



It's not that I'm unhappy with KGS. I just have no choice. It doesn't work for me and, from what I gather, for a number of other people as well.

I repeat, we are not insulting KGS. We just want the comments about changing ISP and computer to stop. They are source of unnecessary flaming and solve none of the issues.

Yesterday on KGS:

joeie1: I found a flaw in KGS
joeie1: Anyone want know it?
BigDoug: people press the enter key too often ?

I liked it so much, I put it in my game info

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Hello,



I actually deleted my own message about 10 minutes after I posted it. I said some condescending things in that post which I regretted almost immediately after submitting it. I therefore deleted it, but you read it beforehand. Please accept my apologies for being condescending -- it was rude and I regret it.

I therefore had an idea. Based on my understanding of your comments, I'd like to explain some of the issues which can cause lag. I'm obviously not saying that these issues are the cause of lag each time. However, I'd like to explain why saying that KGS always causes lag is an over-simplification. Note that I'm going to be as high-level as I can, so each item may be technically incorrect in some areas. I'm choosing simplicity over technical completeness.

If you're using a wireless connection, each wireless transmitter sends out a signal on a given channel. If there are nearby transmitters sending out signals on similar channels, then the connections for people using those channels can be weakened or interrupted. For example, if wireless modems for two neighbours who are playing on KGS are transmitting on similar channels, each neighbour can experience lag depending on which signal is stronger at that moment. Some of the cheaper wireless modems have limited number of channels on which to transmit, which poses a problem if you live in flats with thin walls and/or floors.

If you're using software which uploads or downloads at the same time as you're using KGS, then the performance will be affected. For example, if you're playing on KGS and your computer starts to download a security update, you'll experience lag, because the programs are competing for access.

A firewall can introduce lag because it's making decisions on whether to allow or not allow incoming or outgoing traffic. This is actually quite common. Note that firewalls can exist both on your computer and on your ISP's routers and switches.

The modem which transmits to the ISP depends on various equipment (e.g., the physical line which carries the signal to the switch, how many of the ISP's customers are using the switch at that very moment). My aunt's internet performs poorly when it rains, so she would experience lag at that time if she played on KGS. In our house, we experience lag when there is a major event nearby, because our ISP diverts bandwidth to cope with the increased traffic from their customers at the event. If your using shared physical lines and your neighbour starts to download a large file (e.g., a movie), then your performance is going to be affected. (I can't remember if this is true for both cable and ADSL.)

If you don't live the US, then the signal from your computer must be transmitted to the US. Any problems with the routers en-route or with the transmission lines will impact the quality of the signal, thereby causing degraded performance (seen as lag on KGS). For example, here in Australia, they use undersea cables which are occasionally damaged by submarines and fishing nets. Network performance is degraded until the cable is replaced or repaired. Note that there are similar routing issues within the US (e.g., the recent storms in the US degraded network performance and even cause complete shut-down in some cases).

These are just some of the many issues which can cause lag. If your computer was directly plugged into the KGS server, then it would be much easier to diagnose lag. However, because of the many pieces which make up the internet's infrastructure, poor performance of any of them impacts the network performance. When I worked for the vendor, we used very expensive diagnostic equipment and engineers to diagnose networking issues and they were rarely easily solved.

From your perspective, you experience lag on your personal computer. From a KGS admin perspective, we regularly receive queries from people about poor performance and our personal connection is working just fine. It's not unusual for someone to complain about 10,000 ms response time (using server stats) at the same time that I'm experiencing 150 ms response time. In this instance, something is causing that poor response time, but it's unlikely that KGS is the cause, because I'm not experiencing the lag and I'm not receiving complaints from other people.

For these reasons, when someone complains about lag, the response of KGS admins is to try to identify the cause of the problem. Sometimes we can help and sometimes we can't. However, we generally start with questions about firewalls and what applications you're running, since it's not possible for us to diagnose issues with firewalls, routers or undersea cables.

The lag on KGS that began at 00:00 UTC on July 1st was caused by the leap second. Many Unix systems were affected, see e.g. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/02 ... _airlines/

It was fixed, as far as KGS was concerned, by a reboot at around 03:00 UTC on July 1st.

It's not complex, and you're wrong in a pretty obvious way. KGS in fact was rewritten from scratch about 5 years ago. Since then, the server it is on has grown faster by a factor of more than 10, while the average user count has gone up by not quite a factor of 2. So why do you expect the server to be the problem?

As Nick posted, there was huge lag on July 1-ish because of the leap second bug that hit my system. In general, since the server moved from Texas to the midwest, there has been more lag; the new ISP's networking just isn't as well connected or as robust. I'm not completely happy with that but moving again is a lot of work and money, so I have to sit tight for a while.

And from my non-technical diagnosis, I highly doubt it has anything to do with KGS itself -- but more likely some combination of local OS, wireless, and JVM memory issues.

I have multiple machines of different OS types on the same wireless network each logged into KGS at the same time. -- one experiences severe lag, another doesn't.


And from my technical diagnosis, I come to the same conclusions.

Changing wireless router (again) mostly removed the issues from my Macs.

Let's blame Java -- which wms is actively fixing, by the way (by rewriting in HTML5 instead of Java)

Well, that just about explains things.

We should have a KGS "better ISP" kickstarter or something. People are donating to Kaya.gs, so why not K.gs?

I'd like to point out, that lag itself is not the problem. The problem is the consequences of the lag - namely losing games due to a factor that has nothing to do with go and is utterly out of your control.

As far as the blame game goes, BigDoug's post about the long chain of possible sources of lag makes a fair amount of sense, but it doesn't explain why people have such lag problems on KGS and not on other servers.

From my perspective though, it's irrelevant where the lag comes from. Whether it's caused by submarines or sleepy servers, I think that KGS should do something about the real problem, and make sure that losing because of lag is not possible.

What I would like to see done, is for KGS to implement some form of lag detection. Would it perhaps be possible for the client and the server to compare timestamps?

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Thanks for putting that in fewer words and simpler sentences. I hope they finally understand the problem now. It's exhausting to try and explain in long polite posts what is the problem.

To wms, bigdoug and others: I lose because kgs kicks me out of the game +70% of the time (extreme lag or plain disconnection) IT ONLY HAPPENS ON KGS. Is it clear enough formatted like this?



That's not possible and probably subject to abuse. KGS already lets you exit the game and resume it later when *server/client problems* (I insist!) have less impact on the clients' connections.
Other servers just give you a few minutes to come back to the game or less you lose. It's because they don't have connection problems.

As xed_over pointed, I also believe it's an implementation problem. Java needs to go.
If the solution is on the work, you could just have said so and explain that the problem should go away when it's done.