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 Post subject: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:23 pm 
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  • There is no option to have a game automatically forfeit after some hours or days if someone just decides to close it and play other games.
  • Escapers are able to keep escaping again and again and they lose nothing from it
  • It is forbidden to talk about escapers publicly (and if you do so you the victim, can get banned) so escapers can easily hide

To fix the escaper problem of KGS all you need to do is add an option that forfeits games after a day of disconnection. This way everyone is happen, the people that like to allow games to resume after indefinite time, and those who want escapers dealt with properly.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:03 pm 
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adsfadfaf wrote:
  • There is no option to have a game automatically forfeit after some hours or days if someone just decides to close it and play other games.
Except that when that player escapes enough games, they'll start to forfeit all the games they leave automatically. If the person you played keeps escaping, they'll forfeit the game they played with you.

Anyway, if they left because you were winning, just accept that you won, review your game and move on. Getting the 'win' isn't that important is it? The only people who complain about this are people who are too obsessed with what their 'rank' is. That's a meaningless number anyway, so forget about that, relax and become stronger.

adsfadfaf wrote:
  • Escapers are able to keep escaping again and again and they lose nothing from it
That's not true, there's a limit. And this is actually a feature of KGS because, even though most people don't realise, KGS doubles as a turn based Go server. You can leave a game that you're playing unfinished and when your opponent logs in and makes a move, you'll get an email.

So you have the option of finishing a game in a turn based or real time fashion, and you can switch between them. This is a good feature for busy people and personally I like it. If KGS timed people out like you're suggesting, this feature would be broken, wouldn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:50 pm 
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adsfadfaf wrote:
  • It is forbidden to talk about escapers publicly (and if you do so you the victim, can get banned) so escapers can easily hide

pm a admin, they are very nice (well except some of them, but that is another issue).

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:57 pm 
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gogameguru wrote:

So you have the option of finishing a game in a turn based or real time fashion, and you can switch between them. This is a good feature for busy people and personally I like it. If KGS timed people out like you're suggesting, this feature would be broken, wouldn't it?


In my opinion, this feature should only be available for games without time limit. Otherwise, the time limit has no meaning.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
gogameguru wrote:

So you have the option of finishing a game in a turn based or real time fashion, and you can switch between them. This is a good feature for busy people and personally I like it. If KGS timed people out like you're suggesting, this feature would be broken, wouldn't it?


In my opinion, this feature should only be available for games without time limit. Otherwise, the time limit has no meaning.


yeah, if you want to have this, it should be a separate type of game. If this is the goal behind the setup, it's very kludgy.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Hmm, I wonder if this has ever come up before...


Prevent escapers from starting new games: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5575

Proposed solution to the escapers problem…: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4266

Why aren't escapers marked?: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3678

Escapers viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3679

Prevent escapers from starting new games viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5575

KGS escaper policy - explicit enough? viewtopic.php?f=24&t=530

What bothers you about being escaped on? viewtopic.php?f=24&t=524


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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:42 pm 
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adsfadfaf wrote:
To fix the escaper problem of KGS all you need to do is add an option that forfeits games after a day of disconnection.


Fixing the escaper problem requires a bit more but not that much. I have made related proposals for IGS, then KGS during the last 15 years (see rec.games.go), but so far server programmers are not interested in solving the problem. That is the major cause. Allow escapers by providing weak procedures for game management (such as removing dead stones without the opponent's confirmation) - and there will be escapers.


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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:23 am 
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This is the only topic about KGS which isn't worth discussion anymore. It was stated repeatedly and unambiguously all over the internet by WMS and KGS admins that this is a feature. As in: You should be able to abandon a game without punishment if your opponent starts to attack you verbally in the game chat.

Habitual escaping leads to automatical forfeits since ages.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:22 am 
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tapir wrote:
Habitual escaping leads to automatical forfeits since ages.


It does not consistently. Typical trick: Undo and it is the opponent's move. Repeat.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:08 am 
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Let me make two things clear. I absolutely love KGS, and I absolutely hate escapers. And I have had a dodgy internet issue lately and the thought that others think I might have escaped makes my skin crawl.

That being said, KGS is a wonderful tool - it is NOT the be all and end all of our existance and our rank graphs are NOT our soul (deliberate) measures of self worth. If folks would just realize this, there would be fewer escapers and less upset about them.

KGS should be about having fun, improving our go, and using our time efficiently to learn. When you really think about it, none of this is really impacted by an escaper - with the right attitude it is hilarious to outplay someone to the point they crawl away, clearly you are going to learn nothing from them and there is all manner of efficiency in being well shut of them.

Look, the frustrated have my sympathies, I am one of you - the above is an aspiration - but it is a logical one. Play on KGS to learn and have fun - then take that knowledge and join/form a club and leave the escapers behind. If you live too remotely to make that happen, still try, and while trying, form a group of friends online and learn and challenge and play seriously with each other, and laugh off the escapers you have enountered and frustrated together.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:42 am 
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I play go to have fun and learn. Both of these can happen whether I win or lose and whether my partner in the game escapes or not. It is perfectly possible to review a game in which your partner escaped, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #12 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:15 am 
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tapir wrote:
This is the only topic about KGS which isn't worth discussion anymore. It was stated repeatedly and unambiguously all over the internet by WMS and KGS admins that this is a feature. As in: You should be able to abandon a game without punishment if your opponent starts to attack you verbally in the game chat.


There's a doubling up of features here, as you may just ignore the abusive user.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #13 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:36 am 
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tapir wrote:
This is the only topic about KGS which isn't worth discussion anymore. It was stated repeatedly and unambiguously all over the internet by WMS and KGS admins that this is a feature. As in: You should be able to abandon a game without punishment if your opponent starts to attack you verbally in the game chat.

Habitual escaping leads to automatical forfeits since ages.


Also kludgy, since they implemented a censor button.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #14 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:14 pm 
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shapenaji wrote:
tapir wrote:
This is the only topic about KGS which isn't worth discussion anymore. It was stated repeatedly and unambiguously all over the internet by WMS and KGS admins that this is a feature. As in: You should be able to abandon a game without punishment if your opponent starts to attack you verbally in the game chat.

Habitual escaping leads to automatical forfeits since ages.


Also kludgy, since they implemented a censor button.

Censoring only works after the fact. If someone informs me that my mother was a hamster, I won't be in the mood to play him even if I censor him immediately.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #15 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:07 pm 
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jts wrote:
shapenaji wrote:
tapir wrote:
This is the only topic about KGS which isn't worth discussion anymore. It was stated repeatedly and unambiguously all over the internet by WMS and KGS admins that this is a feature. As in: You should be able to abandon a game without punishment if your opponent starts to attack you verbally in the game chat.

Habitual escaping leads to automatical forfeits since ages.


Also kludgy, since they implemented a censor button.

Censoring only works after the fact. If someone informs me that my mother was a hamster, I won't be in the mood to play him even if I censor him immediately.


I still don't see leaving the game as the right option. If someone is being insulting, then the correct response is to tell an admin. If someone is being annoying but within the terms of service, then you negatively impact the experience of the other person by leaving his game, while ignoring him and finishing the game means no more annoyance. I still don't see a situation where the "correct" in my view choice is to just leave the game. Also, I've never actually seen anyone escape in this type of situation ...

I know this topic never actually goes anywhere, so I'm probably not going to stay in this topic much longer ...

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #16 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Just to throw in my argument, I get disconnected from the internet and many other people do. I think it's nice that a go server errs on the side of allowing games to continue rather than assigning victory based on someone leaving the game. Sure, there are some people that abuse the fact, but they are a small minority and there is a system in place that penalizes them for doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #17 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Redundant wrote:
jts wrote:
shapenaji wrote:
Also kludgy, since they implemented a censor button.

Censoring only works after the fact. If someone informs me that my mother was a hamster, I won't be in the mood to play him even if I censor him immediately.


I still don't see leaving the game as the right option. If someone is being insulting, then the correct response is to tell an admin. If someone is being annoying but within the terms of service, then you negatively impact the experience of the other person by leaving his game, while ignoring him and finishing the game means no more annoyance. I still don't see a situation where the "correct" in my view choice is to just leave the game. Also, I've never actually seen anyone escape in this type of situation ...

I know this topic never actually goes anywhere, so I'm probably not going to stay in this topic much longer ...

Okay, but regardless of your (entirely defensible) view that leaving a game is more vicious and blameworthy than insulting your opponent, shapenaji implied that censoring your opponent and leaving a game are two close substitutes, and that having both options is redundant. So you aren't really to the point here.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #18 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:15 pm 
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jts wrote:
Censoring only works after the fact. If someone informs me that my mother was a hamster, I won't be in the mood to play him even if I censor him immediately.


I'm saying that a person doesn't need to continue to be insulted, and there is a censor button. An admin should still be informed, and the admin can make a judgement call. But I don't think it makes sense to give people 10 "I didn't like the person I was playing with"-freebies.

Partly because I just don't see that kind of rudeness as often as I see someone escaping a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #19 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:59 pm 
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shapenaji wrote:
jts wrote:
Censoring only works after the fact. If someone informs me that my mother was a hamster, I won't be in the mood to play him even if I censor him immediately.


I'm saying that a person doesn't need to continue to be insulted, and there is a censor button. An admin should still be informed, and the admin can make a judgement call. But I don't think it makes sense to give people 10 "I didn't like the person I was playing with"-freebies.

Partly because I just don't see that kind of rudeness as often as I see someone escaping a game.

Okay, so it seems you aren't actually accusing KGS of inconsistency or redundancy, but rather you're circling back to repeat that you personally don't mind continuing a game with someone who has insulted you.

Can we all agree that some people like having the option to leave games when their opponents are rude and insulting, and some people don't? That some people like being able to return to their game when they get disconnected, and some people don't? And that there are several go servers that cater to the preferences of people who don't mind being insulted and don't mind abandoning games when they disconnect, but KGS is not one of them?

Apparently some people get escaped on a lot. I can't remember the last time when someone escaped one of my games. Apparently some people have never had someone become verbally abusive for no reason at all, or after being refused an undo, or after losing a large group; or had their opponent begin discussing his bathroom habits in detail after taking a break. These things have all happened to me, and while I stayed I would sympathize with someone who wanted to leave, and was glad to have the option.

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 Post subject: Re: Why KGS encourages escapes and how to fix it
Post #20 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:15 pm 
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jts wrote:
Apparently some people get escaped on a lot


Things are not as bad as they were a couple of years ago. Nowadays, something else is much more frequent: weak players annoying strong players by game requests 1) regardless of a declared rank range in the game setup comment or 2) repeatedly. The only way to handle them is to put them into the ignore list, which grows and grows until its limit is reached, it needs to be emptied and starts to grow again. KGS misses a feature to restrict the range of opposing ranks in the game requests. (JFTR, a full screen mode working in horizontal and vertical screen position is yet much more urgent.)

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