Actually, the escaper 'problem' on KGS is EXTREMELY easy to deal with and does not require changes to the server, client, and no attitude adjustments from the admins. I will give you the EXACT recipe, fool-proof, and free of charge! You're ready? Ok then, here it goes:

Don't let it bother you!

That's it. That's how simple it is!
You've got the power to solve your escaper problem once and for all, not only on KGS but on every other server you will ever play on!!! Amazing, ain't it? Just remember - with great power comes great responsibility, grasshopper! Err... methinks I mixed up the movies here, somehow. Nevermind, you get the idea, yes?

Now go conquer the world!

PS> If people spent as much time improving their Go as they do bitching about such inconsequential issues as escapers, we would probably already have a good handful of home-grown pros!

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

PSEUDO QUOTE. HE DID NOT SAY THIS, BUT I REPHRASED BANTARI'S EARLIER POST FOR RHETORICAL EFFECT!

Actually, the genocide 'problem' on Rwanda is EXTREMELY easy to deal with and does not require changes to the politics, military, and no attitude adjustments from the populace. I will give you the EXACT recipe, fool-proof, and free of charge! You're ready? Ok then, here it goes:

Don't let it bother you!

That's it. That's how simple it is!
You've got the power to solve your genocide problem once and for all, not only in Rwanda but in every other nation you will ever hear of!!! Amazing, ain't it? Just remember - with great power comes great responsibility, grasshopper! Err... methinks I mixed up the movies here, somehow. Nevermind, you get the idea, yes?

Now go conquer the world!


I hate this sort of attitude, so I've done a reductio ad absurdum on it for you.

EDIT: If one is unfamiliar with what I've done here, note that the quote is not what Bantari actually said. I did a mad-lib on it to show what this attitude, taken to an extreme, leads to. I'm not claiming that he (or any same person) would espouse such a view, but I am showing that the logic here is invalid, and thus his argument is unsound.

Nice, you have your opinion, I have mine.

However, contributing to me words which I did not say is in *extremely* bad taste, not to mention just plain dishonest and nasty, especially if they are words like you posted above.

Back to the topic - you simply cannot compare genocide anywhere with somebody escaping on a game server! If you do not see the obvious differences, I am not sure anybody can really help you, but see a doctor, who knows. And no, you do not just lightly do reductio ad absurdum. You're talking silly. And highly disrespectful towards all the people going through some really serious hardships in their lives.

There are issues in the world actually WORTH bothering about.
You mentioned one, I could mention more. Getting bent out of shape over a silly game on a silly game server is not one of those issues.

But hey - if you feel the need to waste your energies bitching about escapers, be my guest.
Let me know when you start beating your drum about some more serious issue, though. With your apparent intelligence and enthusiasm it must be quite a sight. Hope you'll become a world leader one of these days... Good luck.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

I think your argument, Bantari, is that "getting bent out of shape over a silly game on a silly game server" is not worth bothering about.

It seems to me that it would be more convincing if you gave a reason why. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with you, but since we are talking about the logical structure of your argument, I think that this is the core of the issue.

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be immersed

Sure.
There are two reasons, really.

1) The one already implied - There are so many so much more important and serious things to worry about and to get bent out of shape because of. I will not say much about it, this is not the right place, but I guess we all know this to be true.

2) Futility. Let me elaborate:

As long as there were servers, there were issues. Some servers handle escapers 'badly', so people worry about that. Other have people talking too much, so people worry about that (KGS and the EGR fiasco.) Others are too quiet (like the IGS) and people complain about that... and so on... There will *always* be something to nitpick, and something to get bent out of shape about. And the moment one issue gets solved, another will appear or get into the forefront of attention.

Why? Because we are all different, and there is no pleasing us all at the same time. A developer has to pick some middle-ground to sort-of placate the worst problems, but this is usually done at the expense of other things. So I repeat again - there will always be things to complain about.

So, in practice, you have two choices:
1) Let it bother you, bitch about it, and be generally unhappy, or
2) Find it in yourself to raise above such pettiness and enjoy what you are given a little more.

Also, the specific issue of escapers is especially unimportant, I think. Because it is rooted in a particular moment and very fleeting. Tomorrow you'll laught about it, the next day you forget it altogether. A player escaping rather than admiting defeat will have absolutely no impact on your development as a Go player, not now, not ever.

The only way escaping can impact you is - if you let it!
And then it will impact you negatively, make you get angry, spend your energies on complaining and moaning and groaning and being generally unhappy. Instead - I find it much more productive to shrug it off and just play another game.

These are my reasons.

However - I do agree that there is always the impulse to get upset about such things. It is human. But so is escaping itself. It is up to us to give in to such weaknesses or not. Escapers give in. The rest of us should not.

That's all.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone who has gone through something horrible. However, the point of reductio ad absurdum is to get to something absurd. Seeing your response, I see that I succeeded here.



Also, please don't flame.

I've also edited my earlier post so that it no one will suppose it to be a real quote.

Hi,

Serenity prayer:
God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
The courage to change the things that I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.

(This ain't a religious post, just meant as a piece of wisdom.)

In this context, a changed version would be more appropriate which distinguishes between things which are worth the effort to change them and things which are not worth the effort. Now you need the wisdom to know the difference.

Cheers

hackinger

Well, thanks.
Why not do it right to begin with?

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Hi,

since we are being funny here:

Reductio ad absurdum does NOT translate to absurd reasoning!

EDIT: somebody expressed it even in latin

Cheers

hackinger

Redundant: reductio ad absurdum is not the same as reductio absurda.

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

If I remember correctly, you got quite involved in a thread on GoDiscussion discussing the quoting style of Robert Jasiek.

But this cannot be compared, I guess.

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Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)

My Latin is as good as my Klingon (that is, nonexistent), so I'll guess that what you're saying is that my response was too absurd to be relevant, so let me give a straightforward account of what I was trying to say:

What I tried to do was to show that apathy is not a solution to problems. Apathy does nothing to fix the issue. One may decide the problem too small to be worried about, which in the case of escapers is a totally valid response, but one must not conflate apathy as a response with apathy as a solution.

Any system with flaws is worth bothering about.

But the issue here is that many people assume the KGS escaper policy is flawed, while others do not. And this is where Redundant's reductio ad absurdum falls down, his argument assumes the policy is flawed. But if its not flawed, then it can't be compared in the same way, and we should learn to live with it, as Bantari suggests.

KGS escaper system, as far as I understand, is by design. And so, by design, it is not flawed. It may still have its pros and cons, but its still by design.

Other server systems are designed differently and have their own set of pros and cons.

And learning to live within the current design parameters, is not the same as being apathetic.

I'd like to think that there's at least one possible other reason why the KGS system was designed the way it is, and that is that it also allows the ability to adjourn games and continue them later, even to the point of playing like a turn-based server. I kinda like having that option, even if I don't use it.

There may even be more unspoken reasons for the current design.

Could the current design be improved? Perhaps. Does it need to be? Maybe, maybe not. Its just different. Its not like IGS (and maybe that's another reason for its current design).

I think this thread is getting out of hand. It was another rant against the escaper system at KGS, which wms has stated over and over that he doesn't want to change.

Any serious proposals should be started in another thread?

Anyone else, please calm down before posting.

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a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

Maybe that design is antiquated by now. People have stable internet connections nowadays, even in asia. Most unfinished games will be escapes. So maybe the design became flawed over time, the trade-off becoming bad.

If the escaper system was opt-out (i.e. per game setting for escape handling), escaping would die out very quickly, and the last four people on earth with a modem would lose 2 more games a year.

And regarding adjourning games that's a completely separate matter, which could remain regardless of escaper handling.

But we all know KGS is for kibitzing, so game results don't matter anyway.

First, thank you for disagreeing with my by attacking my argument's premises and inferences.

I concede the point that my argument assumes the system is flawed. This is a debate in and of itself. However, I don't think Bantari was arguing that those who think the system is fine need to learn to live with it. He was responding to those who don't like the current system, by telling them to stop caring.


Neat side note: I actually think the KGS system is not deeply flawed, only somewhat sup-optimal. I dove into this mostly because I don't like the idea that one should give up on trying to fix a system they feel is broken.

PS: KITTEN

I have no opinion on which way to deal with the escaper problem, however it does seem there's a minor fix which would help with the specific situation SpongeBob had: don't let escapers start a new game for <insert some time period here> while their old game is still open.

Nice! We go from escapers to Rwanda to tortured Latin to religion to Robert Jasiek to Klingons and then to kittens.

Works for me.

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

All roads lead to Robert Jasiek. You should have seen that coming

I am with Bantari here: I don't let it bother myself.

Apart from that: Playing on IGS is fine, too. Why bother with KGS if you don't like the escaper rules.