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Offline opex
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #81 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:23 am 
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Black now also has three prisoners, doesn't he?

This post by opex was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #82 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:56 am 
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Thanks Opex I've edited my post.
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Offline Dragon Pie
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #83 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:30 am 
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Approved.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #84 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:09 pm 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 :b3: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #85 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:56 pm 
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I hate gote moves. But after long searching, I can't find anything three points better, so I approve.

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #86 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:18 am 
Judan

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Why hate gote? Many excellent moves are gote.
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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #87 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:22 am 
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I'd be tempted to give you three points if you want to tenuki that move.

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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #88 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:12 pm 
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For some reason I didn't realise it was my turn.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 :b3: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The top because I want to keep black split, and K17 because it has room for a two space extension on either side.

Edit: In our gamelast night I demonstrated to skydyr that I have no idea how to deal with an invasion around R8 so I definitely need to come up with something for that.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #89 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:48 am 
Oza

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Assuming this gets approved, here's my plan:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :b3: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . O . . 2 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , 7 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 6 . . . . , . . . . 4 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not entirely sure about :b7: and depending on white's responses 5 or 7 may be an invasion into the three space extensions.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #90 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:51 pm 
Judan
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For observers:

skydyr wrote:
Assuming this gets approved, here's my plan:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :b3: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . O . . 2 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , 7 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 6 . . . . , . . . . 4 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...


I'll approve 1 without hesitation.

I'm not sure that I like the proposed exchange of 3 for 4.


There are several bothersome things about it.
1) White has an easy invasion point at 'a'
2) The territory outlined is a bit open, as black has the kiema shimari, rather than 'b'.
3) white's right side territory can grow in sente with 'c', threatening 'd'.
4) Black is too weak on the lower right to attempt the attachment at 'e'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . O . . 2 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , 7 . . . b , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 6 . . . . , . . . . 4 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . d . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Compare this to the left side:
1) Playing 7 as shown below makes decent territory.
2) It makes 'f' more difficult for white
3) The attachment at 'g' now works, because black is safe in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . f . 1 . O . . 2 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 6 . . . . , . . . . 4 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . h i . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White may forstall a lot of this by playing at 'h'. Black hanes outside at 'i', of course.

So my inclination would be to handle the right side by playing at O6:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . O . . 2 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . k . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . k . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . # . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . W B . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . j . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now the F4/G4 exchange looks good for us.
The invasion at 'j' is not so good for white.
We can still play around 'k'.

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Offline Dragon Pie
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #91 Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 10:42 am 
Lives with ko

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I approve.

Splitting up the top is a good enough idea. Still, I think black will be happy to close his open skirt. Not worth giving up points over. I'm rethinking my previous change, too.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #92 Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 10:44 am 
Oza

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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 :b3: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #93 Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:30 pm 
Judan
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The perfect move, IMHO. I approve.

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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #94 Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 5:40 am 
Lives in sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 :b3: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . 4 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Like all super villains, I like to build bases.
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Offline Dragon Pie
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #95 Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:12 pm 
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KGS: DragonPie
I approve.

Now I think an extension on the left is biggest. I would have peaked under his skirt on the last move if I was white, but I didn't think the difference was enough to justify giving up points to change it.
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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #96 Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 1:00 pm 
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@Anyone and everyone: When I played K17 it was pretty obvious that black would rather reply with an extension from the left. I feel like I should be able to take advantage of knowing what black wants, but I couldn't work out how. It's a pretty common situation so I'd really appreciate some hidden comments on the subject if anyone's feeling helpful. :bow:
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #97 Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:35 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2495
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 :b3: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . 4 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As mentioned.

Regarding Splatted's statement, maybe play J17 instead of K17?
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Offline Unusedname
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #98 Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 2:33 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

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Rank: kgs 5kyu
KGS: Unusedname
question for obs.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . O . . W . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


isn't this 5 better?

it has the same flavor of invasion. and also has more potential thanks to the marked black stone

it reaches as far as a while the other side is limited by the marked white stone

i ask because both joaz and sky agree on this move. I also think it's strange that joaz thinks it's sente.
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #99 Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 3:08 am 
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Unusedname wrote:
question for obs.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . O . . W . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


isn't this 5 better?

it has the same flavor of invasion. and also has more potential thanks to the marked black stone

it reaches as far as a while the other side is limited by the marked white stone

i ask because both joaz and sky agree on this move. I also think it's strange that joaz thinks it's sente.


IMHO 25 as in game is at least slightly better than your proposal for a few reasons: Most importantly, if White approaches the top right black enclosure from both sides, it actually looks quite lonely, and at least loses any potential at all for expansion. At the same time a white extension on right would make an invasion there harder. This is bad, because threatening to invade the right side seems bigger to me than threatening to invade left side, which is smaller to begin with and has the weakness at B4. To sum it up: I don't know what is sente here, but I suspect that 25 is more likely to be sente than you proposal (or at least bigger of the two options) .
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Offline Tooveli
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #100 Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 3:49 am 
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Unusedname wrote:
question for obs.

I would say they're pretty much miai. My inclination is that the right side is better as the invasion is easier and the top right corner is weaker. On the other hand, the left-side move is bigger in terms of territory/framework. I would just play on the right and spend my time on more important parts of the game. As long as you play one of the two you're not going to be making a huge mistake.
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