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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #201 Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:26 am 
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I like the move, and I like the reasoning.
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #202 Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:02 am 
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #203 Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:12 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 57A: W 28, B 26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 57A: W 28, B 26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | B X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is why I'm not sold on Joaz's correction. It seems to me like, unless we block in gote, black can still reduce this space to nothing. However, it's not worth blocking in gote unless we need the eyespace to live. I still think we can make an eye below in emergency, so I'm going to go ahead and tenuki. If I'm wrong, one of my brothers will have to correct me again and I'll be really embarassed. But I can only play on my reading, and that means making the move I made before for the same reason.

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #204 Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:44 am 
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Imo, if White doesn't block, then he should take time to pincer the black top group. If both groups get strong on top then the white cutting stones become meaningless.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #205 Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 57B: W 28, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . W . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , C . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Attachment:
stubborn-mule.gif
stubborn-mule.gif [ 7.72 KiB | Viewed 9422 times ]


Sigh. Younger brother is correct that it still does not protect our teritory, and also correct that it is probably not worth playing in gote. But he still wants to play big before urgent.

I looked at the left side some more. They can't kill us. The group that could get in trouble is in the center. If black plays something like this...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...then our center group is going to be in serious trouble. I was never in favor of creating that group, but now it has become the go equivalent of the Lehman Brothers - it is too big to let it die.

There is only one reasonable way to make it alive without resorting to multiple gote moves: we have to attack black's upper group in the hope of starting a fight in which we can strengthen our group in sente.

Black has to defend, of course. And he can't stop after just one move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 7 5 . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 6 . 1 2 . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . W . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #206 Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:20 pm 
Gosei
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Sorry, Joaz =/

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #207 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:10 am 
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Joaz and I agree on the same move! Now, if only that could happen more in our own game... :lol:

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #208 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:35 am 
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Yeah, this is the right direction, Although I think the middle group is in better shape than Joaz thinks... there's a lot of aji around to play with.

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #209 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:56 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 5?A: W 28, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First instinct. (I already noted this move at 53).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 5?A: W 28, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . 6 5 , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . 8 7 . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O 1 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 2 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . O X , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 2 3 O X . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O 5 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . 4 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Anything else?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 5?A: W 28, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . 5 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X 3 O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . 2 1 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like that, and I don't think there are any other options.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #210 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:07 am 
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Not approved.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 5?A: W 30, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Idea's right, I prefer the other direction though. Now our left side group is solid and happy, I want to attack that big dragon in a major way. If he gets out, hopefully the thickness we've got in the process will let us come back and swallow this stone or at least make it live tiny small, but the top right is too vulnerable for my tastes to give White tenuki after :b3: in that last diagram. I'll be interested to see which of these two Violence prefers ...
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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #211 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:31 am 
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The specific reason I dismissed this move is that (it looks to me that) it lets white's pincer-born group and floating group connect with each other and gain attractive potential towards the lower right.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #212 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:36 am 
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Attach to our weak stone? Thank you, Topazg! :D
Give us two prisoners while doing it? Thank you again! :D
My prediction is that Violence picks yet a third location - probably L14.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #213 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:38 am 
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Image

The previous testimony had a fatal contradiction!

Evidence:
We show the intent to attack, but we're attaching to one of the two groups we want to attack! That's just silly, we should move out and attack both!


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 5?A: W 31, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Image

Image

This post by Violence was liked by 6 people: daniel_the_smith, k43r, Marcus, topazg, unkx80, Zwergesel
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #214 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:40 am 
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A applaud the awesomeness of the previous post.
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #215 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:46 am 
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Since I don't get to change moves very often, I figured I should make them as epic as possible.
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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #216 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:01 pm 
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I remember one occasion in the GD half of this game where I made exactly such a non-leaning move and it was changed to a leaning one.

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #217 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:02 pm 
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 5?A: W 31, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ImageHmm...
I thought about attaching to black's new stone from either side, but that seems... naive? Not only would it strengthen their not-strong group, it makes us strengthen one group at the expense of the safety of the other. Similar to atari-ing a cutting stone, I don't want to push my opponent one way until it's clear that that side is less important to me. So I think we ought to try to get a base and some stability on one side, so that we can get it back down to two weakish groups ASAP: one ours and one black. This side seems the correct side to grab some stability, since it's along the wall and can get eyespace. This stone is not safety, but it does buy a bit of breathing room and put a little pressure on the black corner stone. I looked at attacks black can do on our other group (mostly starting with the peep), but I think we will be okay. If ya'all want diagrams of my imagined attacks, I am perfectly glad to draw them. In the mean time, however, this is the move that I think most needs to be played.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #218 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:10 pm 
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Which one would that be, Gresil?
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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #219 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:15 pm 
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I can't remember. I've lost track of the move history.

I see Terr just played the move I'd have played in this situation, and which I envisioned white would play after the sequence that I showed as following from my leaning move. I guess the non-leaning move makes sense after all.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #220 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:25 pm 
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I approve.

Our central group has lots of room to run, so when black plays a move that threatens both groups, we should defend the other one. Younger brother's choice not only gets a much eye space as we reasonably can, it conveniently happens to be a good approach to the corner.
The only thing that I worried about was that there might be a mutual kakari around L18, and that black would get it first. The most successful attempt by us does reduce black's eyespace, but black gets the corner and then has one eyeless group running between two eyeless groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 5 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 8 2 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 9 7 3 . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 0 X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Letting black have that spot first is not too bad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . 1 2 4 . . . a . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . b . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


as white has 'a', 'b', and 'c'.

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