If black jumpes into the corner then the result will be ok for us
My thinking with the one space pincer is to discourage black from jumping into the corner even more so than with the two space. Does a double approach work well against the one-space high pincer, though? I'm not that familiar with it.
Author:
andreyl [ Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
bump
Author:
emeraldemon [ Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:35 am ]
Post subject:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
@white
Ok, I think we probably all agree that extending is too nice to black, so we can throw this one out:
Neither of you mentioned the one-space low pincer. It's the one I know best, so I'd like at least consider it, good or bad. I think black going into the corner is good for us because of the top 4th line stone:
In that case black is giving up the left to break up the top, I still think that's a good result for us because we have sente to attack the left stones or come back to the right side.
If black wants to emphasize the left (which I think is their best plan), black can one-space jump. There are different lines, I've been looking a bit at this (newer?) varation lately:
Black definitely gets to reinforce the two black stones this way, but it's a wide gap, and we build something nice-ish on the top.
I don't know the high pincers as well, I get the vague sense they are less common because they are more special-purpose moves, but maybe this is one of those special-purpose cases. The only joseki(?) I know is this one:
I'm not sure what white's followup should be in that case, maybe something like 'a' or 'b' to keep them split? It seems workable, not really sure. Andreyl showed this one:
This also looks like a running fight for us, but black's lower-left stones settle so easily that I feel bad.
OK, sorry for writing so much without really coming to a conclusion, but I guess I'd like to have a bit more idea what we expect from each pincer before we pick one. There are also more splitting moves like a,b,c:
These have the advantage of weakening the two black stones directly, which I like, at the cost of not putting much pressure on the white stone. I guess we have to ask about something like:
A followup by black on the left is practically assured, and black is still left thin there. Black can't solidify or entirely fix the left in one move. This gives white sente to create a nice framework on top, and we can keep sente to make the right side solid. White has no weak groups and only one thin position, while black has 2-3 thin extensions.
White also has built more potential on the top than black has on the side.
A pincer, by contrast, invites a complex fight when black counterpincers and/or double-approaches, and could just end up making black's two stones on the left look good as they stabilize a counterattack.
At the very least, this diagram keeps the position simple and the game balanced going into the middle-game, and white gets the last big point.
In sum, I no longer support a pincer.
Author:
emeraldemon [ Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
@white
I like simple. Maybe this is a bad attitude, but I feel like black made a mistake in leaving the two stones on the bottom left to play a slowish move and I'd like to take advantage of that. What do you think about splitting like in my last diagram?
Author:
skydyr [ Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
emeraldemon wrote:
@white
I like simple. Maybe this is a bad attitude, but I feel like black made a mistake in leaving the two stones on the bottom left to play a slowish move and I'd like to take advantage of that. What do you think about splitting like in my last diagram?
I expect black would double-approach and likely steal the corner out from under us in a more favourable fashion, or emphasize breaking up the top, if we have the three space pincers. I think that black could then handle the left side easily enough by capping or the one space jump, as when we discussed playing a move around there earlier, so I can't say I like it. The 4-space quasi-pincers, as black I would just play a 2-space extension for a base and leave white's stone doing nothing between a strong group and the two-stone wall.
My issue with all the pincers and quasi-pincers like those is that black can easily follow up on the side with a dual purpose move that causes us problems while resolving theirs. I'd rather let them think about when they want to waste a second move to shore it up and worry about white's exploiting it through the rest of the game. We all feel black has made mistakes and/or played a couple slow moves, so lets not do anything to help black fix their problems or complicate the game when we are ahead. Basically, I advocate for patience.
Author:
andreyl [ Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:03 am ]
Post subject:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
@white
I don't like the outcomes of low one space pincer,either way it feels mediacore as for the late diagram
I don't see a good plan if black jumps in with a or b I would rather not start a fight near so many black stones.
I'm fine with playing a bit closer. I just threw in there for the general idea. If we play as tight as a two space extension, for example, we still have miai to expand on either side. I suspect the three-space extension is fine, at least, cramping black a bit.
We have to deal with this stone somehow in the future, so leaving the upper left with sente to do so seems like a good plan to me.
Quote:
My main reason to pincer is to prevent blacks huge potential on the left side
(note: diagram slightly modified) Of course we can try to invade later but still,it feels like black got a lot of potential compared to us.
We can the do the splitting idea,I actually prefer to complicate this game
In this diagram, I feel we still have good invasion potential at A, B, and C, while D or thereabouts is also quite large. If black plays, say, C to fix the aji, we can still take D to threaten A again, and black has had to take gote for it. We can follow up with splitting up the black stones on the bottom, or something else, but white has made more on top than black has on the left, so it seems good for white locally. Once the right side is stable, I think white is ahead on points and has similar future potential to black.
I thought the keima left a good low-high balance on the top, but the one-space jump also seems playable and aims to limit black more, as a compromise. It does leave black more invasion potential on the top, though.
Author:
emeraldemon [ Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
@white
I feel undecided. I can see just extending, I also like the split. Maybe it comes down to how easily we can invade the left vs making profit on top. I will try to work over the board tonight, experiment with both.
Author:
skydyr [ Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
emeraldemon wrote:
@white
I feel undecided. I can see just extending, I also like the split. Maybe it comes down to how easily we can invade the left vs making profit on top. I will try to work over the board tonight, experiment with both.
Any results?
As a counterproposal to everything, to put it off a bit, we did consider approaching at O17 in response, since it seems more sente?
Author:
emeraldemon [ Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:57 am ]
Post subject:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
@white
I think I like this best, we can pick a or b to followup, black is more or less forced to take the corner I think:
We do get sente in the above diagram, but I think white's top framework has at least as many holes as black's on the left, and pointwise it seems about even. I think I'd rather take c10 and have pressure on those pesky black stones in the lower left.
Author:
emeraldemon [ Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:59 am ]
Post subject:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
@white
Also, it's been a week since the last move, so we should probably pick something. I wasn't particularly responsive over the holiday, I'll try to be faster in the future.
in there for the general idea. If we play as tight as a two space extension, for example, we still have miai to expand on either side. I suspect the three-space extension is fine, at least, cramping black a bit.