It is currently Thu Oct 31, 2024 4:23 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 104 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #41 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:58 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . B . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 8 , . . . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . 9 . 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My feeling is to approach from the top, to keep Black separated there. I prefer the high approach as being lighter if Black strengthen his group with :b25: and :b27:.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #42 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:11 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Possible continuation from Bill's last variation ?
After :w5: maybe W has something around the fuzzy area, or (a) direction ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O X 4 3 . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . ? ? ? . . 5 . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #43 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:23 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
I must admit I'm a little nervous, but I really can't find fault with any of my moves so far. On further reflection, considering how strong white is everywhere I think just living inside the left seems possible, possibly even correct later. I dislike it because I'll lose points and weaken my top corner by doing so.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #44 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:43 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
This one's tricky. I should have a move by tonight or tomorrow.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #45 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:28 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
That's cool.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess 'a' and 'b' are sort of miai.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #46 Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:28 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I kept trying to find ways to deviate, because I don't want to give him the star point on the side, but I couldn't really find a good spot. I think I have to take a small consolation in the fact that the bottom left is low.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 0 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 4 . . 3 9 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O 7 , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 8 . . . . . . 6 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . 3 O . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is what I've been envisioning, and I don't feel like I got a big advantage, but I don't feel behind either. So I guess it's what I'll go with.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #47 Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:00 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like that R17, N16 have a sort of miai for reducing top right.

I'm not sure how Violence will try and work with the competing moyos now.

Perhaps I can use Violence's reduction of my moyo to reduce his moyo.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #48 Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:07 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
IMHO, an approach to the lower right is the biggest move for black.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #49 Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:11 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 0 , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I have to do this... but I'm not sure how to best follow up.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #50 Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:00 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
An easy opening for Black.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #51 Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:56 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm perfectly happy. I was wanting some favorable fighting over here to help me reduce black's moyos and develop a territorial game.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #52 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:15 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
Right, I gradually remembered that this is an insane and dangerous way to play to try to get a good result and I was meant to just play a one space high pincer instead for that reason.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #53 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:34 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Loons wrote:
...this is an insane and dangerous way to play...


This may be the best way to play against Violence: make him play defensively early.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #54 Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:47 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't give him the result in my diagram... I think white's shape is too optimal. I really need to change something. After thinking long and hard about this, I decided to go with this. There are a lot of variations, but I'm just hoping there's some way I can complicate the situation and let it spiral out of his control.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #55 Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:04 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I feel like I have to play strongly here and so cannot eg. sink to the second line.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #56 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:02 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Alright, into the Magic Sword we go. How much do you know?

I don't actually know that much, but it's not a very well documented joseki to my knowledge. Maybe I can get a decent result here. I have a ladder, so he can get a ladder break, but I don't think it's that good for him.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #57 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:46 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Does anyone know the modern pro consensus (if such a thing exists!) on if the one space approach to the Kobayashi is a mistake and if two-space high pincer is the correct punishment? When I learnt that (probably in 2007 on Go to China trip from Peter Liu 2p and friends, or maybe earlier) the reasoning was the sequence below: because black can use the peep of 6 to fix the lower side weakness in sente (thanks to the marked Kobayashi stones) he can take sente to extend to 8, preventing a white counter pincer so white's group is a bit useless and can't make up the territorial loss on the lower side by getting a counter-attack on 2. (Now of course this current game has rather more stones on the board so is different, maybe the 8 here being at j4 would actually be an underplay given strong boring f3 in place).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 3 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . 6 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


However, I later heard (second-hand perhaps not accurate) that Korean pros now thought the outside attach was a playable answer for white against the two-space high pincer, that the magic sword need not be feared as white could do ok somehow (wasn't told sequence). When I tried this on KGS I often got this result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 0 . 3 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 1 X 5 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 8 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . b X . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This usually seemed playable for white to me as although white is small he is settled and black's lower side is low and still has a gap at a and there's the weakness at c too if black doesn't defend there now (which is solid but slow). In fact if black played :b10: on the right instead of joseki on lower side I'm not sure if the fighting is good for white due to black's k4 stone, in the above line black feels a bit inefficient on the lower side. Even so some games I managed to use techniques like b and crosscut to either break the lower side or kill black's 2nd line group there.

So if this result is ok for white (is it?) should black choose a different pincer like the one-space high? This joseki variation leads to a running fight that makes use of k4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 8 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 5 X O 2 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O . O . . 7 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . a . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Anyone have anything authoritative on this?


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #58 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:50 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 577
Liked others: 22
Was liked: 36
Rank: Fox Tygem 6d
KGS: emerus
Tygem: emerus
OGS: emerus
I vaguely recall learning from an authoritative source a few things that you mentioned. I also don't know the continuations from the Magic Sword in this position (should be very exciting to follow) and I don't agree with your variation on the one space pincer. Black can't just give up the ponuki. I see counter-pincers more commonly.

There has been resurgence of Kobayashi (and high Chinese) on Tygem and the one space approach response. I am seeing a lot of the outside attach, counter pincers, and variations like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W With or without the 5-6 exchange
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 7 . 4 6 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #59 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:53 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The ball is in black's court for the next move.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #60 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:04 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 577
Liked others: 22
Was liked: 36
Rank: Fox Tygem 6d
KGS: emerus
Tygem: emerus
OGS: emerus
I feel like professionals intend to sacrifice one of these groups for leverage on either side. The existence of white f3 may make a difference.

This deserves some study. I favor this outside attachment as well.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 104 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group