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 Post subject: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #1 Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:26 pm 
Lives in sente
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Rank: KGS 4 kyu
GD Posts: 227
KGS: Aphelion02
Lloydv and I will be playing a 3 stone game. Enjoy!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He says he is Japanese 9k but probably stronger than that. I am probably stronger than 5k KGS too, but this is a slow game. Still, I feel confident.

No thoughts for now, I play the 3-4 because of my familiarity with this move. If he approaches I will choose a pincer he (hopefully) isn't familiar with. If he takes the bottom or right sanrensei I will try to play the mini-Chinese.

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #2 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:36 am 
Dies in gote
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Posts: 23
Location: Nagoya, Japan
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: JPN 9K
KGS: LV3
Introduction: I'm Lloyd Vincent. I'm in my 20s. I live in Japan. I translate stuff. I spend my weekends at the game center and (of course) playing Go.

Officially (officially = at the Nihon Kiin sponsored amateur go club) I'm 9K and currently ranked "9K?" on KGS (still new there, too).

I'm relatively new to go and especially new to these forums, but getting better quickly because I study like a madman. ;-)

I try to play in a balanced way, but my curiosity gets the better of me quite often--especially in mid-game--and I'll end up playing a daring move (which usually backfires...)

Anyway, here's my first move! Good old ikkentakagakari (1-space-high approach). I love this approach so much that sometimes I even play it on 4/4 stones! :razz:

Edit: I almost forgot! "Yoroshiku onegaishimasu!"


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 2 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , B . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is how I'd like the game to develop.

White can have some territory on the top left, I'll use my sente from the joseki to make a threatening moyo on the top/top-right by playing a shimari at one of the red-square marked points. This will (eventually) force white to invade at one of a/b/c.

If A or B, I will try to seal white into the top-right. If at C I will defend the corner.

...probably reading too far ahead here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 4 . . . . 6 . . . c . . b a . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another possibility? This would throw a kink in my plans because white can invade before I play my shimari, but black's position is very stable and black still has good potential on the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Learning go in Japan.

My go blog (mostly in Japanese): http://komoku.tumblr.com
My other blog: http://nihonshock.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/lloydvincent


This post by lloydv was liked by: Stefany93
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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #3 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:32 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 348
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 31
Rank: KGS4k
KGS: CSamurai
lloydv wrote:
This is how I'd like the game to develop.

White can have some territory on the top left, I'll use my sente from the joseki to make a threatening moyo on the top/top-right by playing a shimari at one of the red-square marked points. This will (eventually) force white to invade at one of a/b/c.

If A or B, I will try to seal white into the top-right. If at C I will defend the corner.

...probably reading too far ahead here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 4 . . . . 6 . . . c . . b a . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another possibility? This would throw a kink in my plans because white can invade before I play my shimari, but black's position is very stable and black still has good potential on the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To Lloyd:

Very optomistic, but I'm impressed that at 9k, you've got such a strong grasp of even a couple of joseki, and what you'd like to see.

Knowing the outcomes of joseki is very good, since it can help give you an idea of how you'd like the sides to develop.

However, don't rely too much on that knowledge. Often, people, even into dan level KGS ranks, don't know proper joseki and fuseki, and play the opening wildly and without aim, relying on a strong fighting spirit to see them through to the end.

Alternately, kyu level players on KGS tend to follow joseki like a mantra, whether it suits the board or not.

Stay flexible, and imagine that your opponent is insane whenever planning your fuseki, especially in a handicap game. White has to take strong risks, and many players choose to do this during the fuseki, rather than waiting for black to make a mistake.

Have fun.

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #4 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:38 am 
Lives in sente
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KGS: Aphelion02
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 3 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Was debating between this and the two space high. There are all sorts of viciousness that can result from either pincer. Ended up choosing this because the often move 8k - 12k players play here, the 1 space jump, is wrong.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc In my dreams
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #5 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:07 pm 
Lives in gote
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Rank: KGS4k
KGS: CSamurai
Aphelion wrote:
Was debating between this and the two space high. There are all sorts of viciousness that can result from either pincer. Ended up choosing this because the often move 8k - 12k players play here, the 1 space jump, is wrong.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc In my dreams
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For Aphelion

Good that you know the incorrect move. But do you know the correct one, and which options you plan to pursue from that point?

You should always plan for your opponent to make the strongest possible move you know. That way, if they don't, you can be happily surprised.

Enjoying this game,
CSam

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #6 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:43 pm 
Lives in sente
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Rank: KGS 4 kyu
GD Posts: 227
KGS: Aphelion02
CSamurai wrote:
Aphelion wrote:
Was debating between this and the two space high. There are all sorts of viciousness that can result from either pincer. Ended up choosing this because the often move 8k - 12k players play here, the 1 space jump, is wrong.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc In my dreams
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For Aphelion

Good that you know the incorrect move. But do you know the correct one, and which options you plan to pursue from that point?

You should always plan for your opponent to make the strongest possible move you know. That way, if they don't, you can be happily surprised.

Enjoying this game,
CSam


There are a lot of very difficult variations from this pincer, I only know some parts of some of them. However, some ideas of shape, intuition, and logic can get you through most situations in games at my level. Some variations I know:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc I rarely see this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc This happens a lot, but I'd probably hane the other way
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 6 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 2 . . 0 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc I don't really know when this is appropriate globally, but I have an irrational love of this sequence and like to play it
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 7 8 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 6 2 9 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc cont. This is fiendishly complex. I know that White should be able to attack one group, and how to get there will depend on my reading when I get there.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 1 . 3 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O O X O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O 9 0 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #7 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:53 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hasami!? (`_´メ)

Well, I should have expected an aggressive response after playing an early kakari in a handicap game.

So, to run or fight?

Run:
White expands along the side. I could still make a moyo in the upper right by threatening the pincer stone with A, B or C but White D would look bad for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . d . O . b a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . c , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fight:
I can jump into the corner and deny white some profit, then escape with 5, but white gets to choose which group to develop next with a/b. I don't like the loss of initiative, but white ends up split and low, so it should be hard to capture much territory with either group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . a , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #8 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:01 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 5 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here we go ^_^

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #9 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:35 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O B X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Is it just me or is white absolutely begging for a fight?

Well, no turning back now.

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #10 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:05 am 
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CSamurai wrote:
To Lloyd:

Very optomistic, but I'm impressed that at 9k, you've got such a strong grasp of even a couple of joseki, and what you'd like to see.

Knowing the outcomes of joseki is very good, since it can help give you an idea of how you'd like the sides to develop.

However, don't rely too much on that knowledge. Often, people, even into dan level KGS ranks, don't know proper joseki and fuseki, and play the opening wildly and without aim, relying on a strong fighting spirit to see them through to the end.

Alternately, kyu level players on KGS tend to follow joseki like a mantra, whether it suits the board or not.

Stay flexible, and imagine that your opponent is insane whenever planning your fuseki, especially in a handicap game. White has to take strong risks, and many players choose to do this during the fuseki, rather than waiting for black to make a mistake.

Have fun.


To CSamurai:

Well, you couldn't have been more right about the over-optimistic part! White is much more aggressive than I expected. But then again, if everything went according to plan then it wouldn't be any fun either. ;-)

Win or lose, I think I'll enjoy the aggressive game more (and learn more too).

Thanks for the kind words and advice. My joseki knowledge is limited but I do have a couple forms that I can lay down. I generally don't like joseki, it's kind of boring to play out pre-decided patterns. But this early in the game and with a fresh board I figure it's as good an opportunity as I'll ever get to practice joseki variations for my favorite approach.

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #11 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:58 am 
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[go]$$Bc Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #12 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:16 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O B O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Just going with the joseki for now.

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #13 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:32 pm 
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[go]$$Wc Move 9-11 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #14 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:12 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 12 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O 3 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O 5 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 S S . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . S S . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . S S . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . S S . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . S S . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . S S . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's atari at F16 was the wrong side. White needs a working ladder to pull off the top-side atari variation but doesn't have it.

White needs to cut losses and depart from the joseki.

White 1 at 3 might offer some resistance, but I'm confident I could read out the right response given some time.

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #15 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:29 pm 
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[go]$$Bc Move 13 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Going as per joseki.

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #16 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:39 pm 
Dies in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 14 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #17 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:48 pm 
Gosei
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@Lloydv:
lloydv wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O 3 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O 5 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 S S . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . S S . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . S S . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . S S . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . S S . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . S S . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's atari at F16 was the wrong side. White needs a working ladder to pull off the top-side atari variation but doesn't have it.

White needs to cut losses and depart from the joseki.

White 1 at 3 might offer some resistance, but I'm confident I could read out the right response given some time.

Not true, this is assuming White plays 5 in your last diagram. It is a different story (and still joseki, just another line) if White plays C15 instead.

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #18 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:05 pm 
Dies in gote
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Araban wrote:
@Lloydv:
Not true, this is assuming White plays 5 in your last diagram. It is a different story (and still joseki, just another line) if White plays C15 instead.


@Araban:

But if white didn't defend the double atari, black would get territory and thickness on the top, and could still link into the corner by abandoning the two stones. Doesn't look very good for white but I guess it's better than the alternative...

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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #19 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:09 pm 
Lives in sente
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 15 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pretty sure there's no alternative to this. I think B wasted a ko threat.


Edit: ninja editted out trigger as there could be alternate play.

Triggers for lloyd: Read after you made your move.
If you play G18 I play C15, if you play C15 I play G18


Last edited by Aphelion on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 71. Lloydv [9k] vs Aphelion [5k]
Post #20 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:10 pm 
Gosei
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lloydv wrote:
Araban wrote:
@Lloydv:
Not true, this is assuming White plays 5 in your last diagram. It is a different story (and still joseki, just another line) if White plays C15 instead.


@Araban:

But if white didn't defend the double atari, black would get territory and thickness on the top, and could still link into the corner by abandoning the two stones. Doesn't look very good for white but I guess it's better than the alternative...

@lloydv:
There is no need to defend the double atari because defending just one of them gives White a better end of the deal.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B B O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O B B O 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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