Hey all, I'm a 5k KGS (who's mostly only ever played medium length automatches before). Dfan is taking white no Komi as he's slightly stronger than me. We're playing closed book and NZ rules. If anyone has any pointers on diagram manipulation, they'd be much appreciated. I downloaded Drago but I have not tricked it into exporting diagrams in a here-friendly format yet.
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Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Have a good game, Loons! I've been playing on and off for about 20 years, often taking years off at a time (my main game is chess). I started playing again a couple months ago after a one-year break, and as usual I seem to have improved by a stone by not playing for a year. I'm AGA 4k, and my KGS rank recently got to 3k; who knows if it'll stay there.
I don't like playing 4-4 much; some people like to take care of the corner in one move, but I always find it hard to develop from them.
If Black plays in the lower right, I'll probably play a symmetrical komoku at D3. That's about the limit of my fuseki planning.
You'll also probably notice soon enough that my joseki knowledge is really small, probably about as good as most 10k players. I find that I'm happier not concentrating on remembering them, and you know what they say about studying joseki and losing two stones...
I plan to annotate this mostly at my level; I think that it's most interesting to see what players actually think. If anyone wants further details of any of my thoughts, let me know.
Last edited by dfan on Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Haha, this is too wild. I never spend time thinking about fuseki during an actual game, I'd run out of time midgame if I did that. So, I'm a bit new to this, bear with me everyone, I've got a bit carried away- anyway, follow me to realms of fantasy;
All safe for Dfan, and quite interesting considering the game Part I
By playing a hoshi, I am obligated to try and make him happy by getting moves around the x's. He is a sideways influence oriented stone. But! Obviously I can not play at them directly, because there are still corners up for grabs! (Corner>sides>middle)
So, I need to try and play corner moves that make one or more x a future good move. Some thoughts;
The stone at 3 is making two hoshis happy, that is the theme of sanrensei. But, the marked white stone is a directional stone along the top, pincering here would be awkward for black - but unpincered, white can make a kobayashi formation...
Seems too good for white. Black has only played on one side of the board, and the black top left approach involves a bunch of kobayashi stuff I'm only vaguely familiar with.
The bottom left hoshi is getting happy and the top right does not seem under pressure. White`s territorial profit is perhaps shortsighted.
So white will probably pincer (3-4 points are pincer oriented stones anyway, hey?). That`s trickier. Pincers are tricky, so I don`t feel I can foresee this very well.
Part III
Applying the 1-2-3 concept to Part II - if you exchange 1 and 2 to play 3, maybe you should just play 3?
This gives white a lot of apparent options - letting white dictate the direction is a bad thing; but how good are his choices? If white plays c I can play b, this transposes to a situation in II that I liked.
If white plays b I might take the 5-4 as a starting corner, because of a ladder dependent joseki;
Better for W; next he will attack top right, but still good for B I think - profit and potential from the top left. Slightly hurt top right, perhaps.
NB: If he pincered directly I would tenuki to the bottom left, creating diagonal fuseki again. If he played locally again I would tenuki to the final corner. This is a result I still feel ok about (not as much as some other variation... which is why W will avoid them).
Last thought; huh, I kinda lost sight of making my top right hoshi happy. He's just going to have to man up.
Post last thought last thought; I realize I didn't deal with him counter-approaching my top right, which I can see him doing, but that will very much depend on how he does it. I will aim for an early tenuki. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
Comments and advice on my comment-making-style would be appreciated.
[go]$$Bc Comments and advice on my comment-making-style would be appreciated.
Move 2 in fuseki and so much already. It should be good.
I've never seen this particular move 2 kakari before. I can only imagine it's good for W as it will likely transpose into a normal parallel fuseki but W will play already knowing the direction of B first approach.
This could be a sign of black playing a fearful game, trying to hard to avoid certain positions.
I've never seen this particular move 2 kakari before. I can only imagine it's good for W as it will likely transpose into a normal parallel fuseki but W will play already knowing the direction of B first approach.
This could be a sign of black playing a fearful game, trying to hard to avoid certain positions.
I don't think the position itself is bad, you can think of black 3 as a fuseki probe. Depending on how dfan plays, Loons can pick the better course of action. Psychologically, I think you're right, since he dismisses the pincer too easily on Part II of his comments. I don't think a pincer would hurt him that much, since if jumped out, he would be running towards the 4-4 on the other side of the board. I don't know the josekis for pincers as well, so I may be wrong, but it seems that playing cross fuseki is better for him at this point than it is for white.
Safe for Loons (Interesting that we thought about the same ladder!)
On my own already! I'm not sure I've encountered this before.
I figure 1) taking an empty corner can't be bad, and 2) it's fine to tenuki from the upper left, since now it's just like he played 5-4 and I played the 3-4 under him, which is totally standard.
I played in the lower right corner because I couldn't find a spot in the lower left that I liked. Everything seemed to give him a nice approach, or if I played D5 he could could play D3 under me and I didn't really like the symmetry (although I guess I get to make the next move). I'm sure the lower left would be fine, it just isn't in my comfort zone.
Two nice things about this spot, given that I chose the lower right:
1) He doesn't have an approach that works great with his hoshi stone at Q16 (e.g., if I played at Q3, Q5 would be really nice for him).
2) It makes the ladder of the following common joseki not work:
Not a big deal, but it's something, and makes it marginally more difficult for Black to make his two current stones work together meaningfully. (Of course my two stones don't work together at all!)
I tend to concentrate (too much?) on taking territory, which means I have to be on guard that my opponent isn't getting too much influence in exchange. I can see that it's going to be another one of those games...
Last edited by dfan on Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Safe for Dfan (Barely; but the board is different enough now)
Okay, another directional stone, also pointing to my top right. Thus a little different to my diagram.
My options, once more; Take the top left as a starting corner (but no good ladder), take the open corner and see what white does, enclose the top right.
I feel something like this will happen. My issue here is that it looks like white is preparing to fight black`s influence (by pointing stones towards it). I don`t play a lot of 4-4 x-x enclosures, though, that could be exciting. I might play this. Thought I'd mention - the reason for the direction of the enclosure is to diminish the value of a white play around a (especially if he encloses lower right with b)
I feel W4 in this diagram isn`t definite-predictable here. I was originally thinking 4-4 here, but pointing a 3-4 at the open side of his lower right seems good. Also maybe 4th line (normal josekis). I think I want to settle top right sharpish if I play lower left.
This ladder break sequence occured to me in my musings, and I can`t get it out of my head! I know the lower right is horribly big for him... But I think I get sente out of the top left anyway, so I`ll get the open corner, too... (where may be at a).
Alright, reviewing, I think diagrams 1 and 3 are both unsatisfactory. I think Diagram 2, with 1 at a best addresses his directional stone in the lower right. I will aim to settle top right quickly and try and develop the left side of the board (pending his moves).
On my own already! I'm not sure I've encountered this before.
I figure 1) taking an empty corner can't be bad, and 2) it's fine to tenuki from the upper left, since now it's just like he played 5-4 and I played the 3-4 under him, which is totally standard.
I played in the lower right corner because I couldn't find a spot in the lower left that I liked. Everything seemed to give him a nice approach, or if I played D5 he could could play D3 under me and I didn't really like the symmetry (although I guess I get to make the next move). I'm sure the lower left would be fine, it just isn't in my comfort zone.
Two nice things about this spot, given that I chose the lower right:
1) He doesn't have an approach that works great with his hoshi stone at Q16 (e.g., if I played at Q3, Q5 would be really nice for him).
2) It makes the ladder of the following common joseki not work:
Not a big deal, but it's something, and makes it marginally more difficult for Black to make his two current stones work together meaningfully. (Of course my two stones don't work together at all!)
I tend to concentrate (too much?) on taking territory, which means I have to be on guard that my opponent isn't getting too much influence in exchange. I can see that it's going to be another one of those games...
I would prefer to take the lower left corner as white. The reason is because, if black plays in the lower left, it goes well with his approach stone:
Posts: 1590 Liked others: 886 Was liked: 528
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
I already can't stand the fact that I can't read kibitzers' comments! Please feel free to let me know when and if things have moved on enough that I can look at some earlier comments.
I'm trying not to overthink this, since neither of us is probably strong enough for these initial moves to matter a great deal as long as we're being fairly reasonable. Plus maybe by moving fast I'll intimidate my opponent!
My main reasoning is: 1) Finishing a corner can't be bad. 2) If he finishes the lower left, I'll be able to play on the point of (approximate) symmetry between our two enclosures first:
This does give him a nice followup at a or so, but there's still enough time to reduce the left, plus it would let me make a perfect double wing enclosure at b. Don't be too greedy! If your opponent is making a nice framework but you're making one that's just as nice, there's no reason to be dissatisfied.
I am also very interested to know what people`ve thought, I can sympathize with the other Malkovichers now. Safe for Dfan
He is buying this Shimari by letting me play first in three corners. I will talk quickly about some other possibilities that I have elected not to play.
The diagonal corners are too far to be well brought together by a or b, thought they are both very tempting. C is also still tempting, but I feel I must take control in the top left before issuing these moves.
I feel a or b; the other 5-4 joseki I'm familiar with will not relate well to both my top right and lower left. I did seriously consider c, but I feel if he tries to treat my 5-4 stone severely c is a little far away. I am not super-familiar with the press joseki here, so we are going exploring. I am going to take advantage of my long time period available for reading. I aim for either a sick wall or otherwise power on both sides.
I'm not 100% about white 4, but he will try to avoid pushing from behind (if he does I will play a bit and then bend him down). The corner still isn't sealed off from me, moves here are urgent. I'll see what he does. If he approaches my lower left, I plan to distant pincer around a to team up my stones. If he approaches top right, I will fight high. I would like to get the shoulder hit at b. He will no doubt try and develop the right - I will probe his shimari and reduce accordingly, but I feel this is much later.
I respect that as he is higher rank than me and has been playing longer, playing for future fights while he has concrete territory is dangerous, but I will not back down.
Either way, I think Black can hane afterwards. He is going to make good thickness, but hey, I have two corners (and probably three, since a 3-3 invasion in the upper right is likely eventually); I just have to make sure I don't let his influence get out of hand.
I chose a because it encloses the corner more securely, and in playing around with it a little on a board it seemed like it will be easier to reconstruct decent moves than with b.
and then (since I have to try to reconstruct the joseki from scratch) I have to decide whether to reinforce my group now or play on the left side before he gets to extend from his wall. Right now I'm leaning toward the former since in a territory-oriented game I really want to minimize my weak groups, and playing on the side would both create a weakish group there and leave my corner group vulnerable. I could possibly see a continuation like this:
in which 3 is a plan I just learned from a Battousai lecture on the Chinese opening. Black has a large side but it is still vulnerable, plus I have a big side myself and have avoided fighting on his terms.
But that's probably much too far to pretend to look ahead...
We all know and love this joseki, but it is bent in an interesting direction for me. I feel it is sente, as if white omits 4, I will play there and I feel he must respond in the corner, allowing me to totally box him in. From there, I considered the various letters. D is certainly tempting (approaches and enclosures are very high value...) but I feel it's contrary to my game plan (large knight's shimari to diminish a white wedge around e), and I would rather set up a Chinese-esque environment with e if I play over there (seems really good, I want to do that, but not the most urgent). An invasion is invited... But hey, getting invaded is what framework's all about, eh?
C is the same as C before, but without b already in place I feel it lacks merit.
My initial instinct was to try and seal white in at a, but I feel that is gote and redundant with B, which seems like a wonderful move to me and what I believe I will/would play. B starts making my hoshi happy. I realize this direction leaves my 3-4 in the woods, but he needs support less urgently than my hoshi, who is fundamentally a framework stone. I'd still like to pincer from my 3-4, distantly. I am quite familiar with 5-3 joseki which I think distant high pincers often resemble there, so I think we should be good.
Part II:
Looking at lute's game got me thinking about avalanches... Which brings me to another weird transposition in the top left.
With just a little creative license, it looks to me like this exchange has taken place - black starts an avalanche (perhaps small, as ladder favours white), white tenukis to make the enclosure, and black guards his cut (becomes important in small avalanche land). My initial impression is that this exchange has been bad for white - that is not a situation in which one should tenuki. The inside cut is urgent, so I don't fear a non-local response. However this situation is complicated and bears further investigation.
(Please bear with me, it's been ages since I've avalanched; I'd like it if some stronger players stated opinions here I could read when the deed is done). Black has a group on each side, and the possibility of starting to realize profit (on top). Black's c13 group is light but perhaps heavy and will ask for further development. I'm not convinced white's corner is necessarily alive here; I will investigate this a bit further and perhaps report back. White's floating middle stones are gaining influence, but are thin/ will require fixing; this will be serendipitous to the two also weak black groups.
White can not play at b as per large avalanche because of the extra black play.
Posts: 1590 Liked others: 886 Was liked: 528
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Loons wrote:
Sorry dfan, I'm going to take a bit longer thinking of my move... I want to actually predict what you play this time!
No problem, and I'm glad to hear that my moves are unexpected
Safe for Loons
Largely just here to make Loons nervous but I'm surprised he needs to think about this move - I thought the hane would be automatic. But I guess there's also this:
Oh, something I think I failed to convey before; I am expecting him to take c14 and allow me to capture at the top. The group I get out of this is way better than the one he does, I believe.
The reason I like F16 in the first place is to create influence that works with the bottom left star point. My opinion is that playing directly as above achieves this more efficiently.
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Loons
maybe 4th line (normal josekis). I think I want to settle top right sharpish if I play lower left.
may be at a).
but I'm surprised he needs to think about this move - I thought the hane would be automatic. But I guess there's also this: