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Offline topazg
 Post subject: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #1 Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:07 pm 
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So, this is another open Malkovich, this time with 4 stones. Same rules as the Mark356 game (Sevis can read everything, but please put spoiler tags around key sequences, and I can only read Sevis' comments) :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Have a great game :)
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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #2 Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Thank you, you too. ^^ Also, thank you for clarifying the rules, was about to ask that.

Until recently, handicap games have been rather a weak point for me: no matter whether I had gotten stones or given stones, I'd end up fighting too much, not seeing something, and losing a big group because of it. Hopefully, playing at a slower pace will help with that.

Eventually, I understood what `don't fight' means, and got a little practice at playing a (in my eyes) quarter-decent looking fuseki, at which point it became a good deal easier to simply use those handicap stones to claim territory.

However, as was pointed out to me today, that would be far more oriented at winning than at learning, so I think I'm going to try to focus on fighting and reading this time around, with a little more focus on influence than territory.

At the moment of writing, I'm 16 kyu on KGS.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 2 . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is how the handicap game that I got the advice from started, and I quite like the sequence -- however, :b5 isn't going to work here. First of all, the tengen not being mine is going to leave the connection reaching out to nowhere, and I have the feeling I may lose those stones very quickly if I don't react. In addition to that, P14 looks like it would be too close to :w2: for my comfort.

I am running ahead of myself, though: I don't intend to play P14 next turn, as it would do little to support the corner or the side. The first big choice I see is between a and b. c is too early, and d is not going to do any good until I get a stone around Q10.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I know from past experience that if I play a (which currently looks bigger, although it does less to defend the corner), the response will be a play on b. e has come to mind after writing out a, and looks tempting, if rather unusual.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B z . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . y . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All three of x, y and z look tempting, but none look any good: One is too close to the enemy, the other leaves the corner undefended, and the third is overly small, and does nothing to support the others. Finally, :b3 doesn't seem to be working together with anything all too well -- it promises a little territory, but needs another turn to give it.

However, a play at S16 by white would cut the corner down by a lot, and would give me rather little compensation for it: and, I would still need another turn to properly expand the base if I wanted to claim the entire top (probably a play at J17 to help the left corner a little more (or maybe even H17, if I'm willing to risk white playing between).

Thus:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . . M . . 3 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thus, so far, the high pincer looks like it will provide the most influence. If reading it through shows that it is likely to end in sente, I think I'm going to go ahead with it -- otherwise, backing out may be a good idea, perhaps to O16.

Going to sleep on it now, I hope I'm not being too verbose. Looking forward to how this will develop -- I suspect that topazg will play in a way that I hadn't mentioned, just to make me think about that possibility.


PS: As I mentioned in the PM, I will be unable to post Friday afternoon - Sunday late evening. I will however be able to read replies, so I'll try to move once tomorrow, and another time Friday morning (all times around GMT).


Last edited by Sevis on Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline amnal
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #3 Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:23 pm 
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General reply to sevis' comment, so not for topazg:

This seems like an early case of thinking too hard. The most important rule here is, it's very hard for black do to anything that will be bad.

In order to understand this, I think it's a good idea to have a bit of a browse of eidogo.com etc. even at the lower ddk level. Not to memorise any joseki or anything (unless the player likes studying that sort of thing), but just to see the great many possible lines there are which all go in different directions. At that point, I think it is easier to stop second guessing yourself and instead have the confidence to justify the moves you have played.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #4 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:14 am 
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@topazg: That should be :w1: :mrgreen:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re:
Post #5 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:08 am 
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EdLee wrote:
@topazg: That should be :w1: :mrgreen:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Oh the fun conversations I've had with people on this one. I've been told both "the handicap stones are move 1", and "the handicap stones don't count as a move" so often I figure I'd just go with the comfort of the White numbers being even numbers :P

If it annoys enough people, I'll change it!
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #6 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:04 am 
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I like even numbers, too. :) A little survey shows the following editors all say it is :w1: :

CGoban
gIGo
inline SGF editor we use here :P
MultiGo
SmartGo

Is there an editor out there that says it is :w2: ? :mrgreen:
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re:
Post #7 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:36 am 
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EdLee wrote:
I like even numbers, too. :) A little survey shows the following editors all say it is :w1: :

CGoban
gIGo
inline SGF editor we use here :P
MultiGo
SmartGo

Is there an editor out there that says it is :w2: ? :mrgreen:


I think Dariush does :D
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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #8 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:53 am 
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amnal wrote:
General reply to sevis' comment, so not for topazg:

This seems like an early case of thinking too hard. The most important rule here is, it's very hard for black do to anything that will be bad.

In order to understand this, I think it's a good idea to have a bit of a browse of eidogo.com etc. even at the lower ddk level. Not to memorise any joseki or anything (unless the player likes studying that sort of thing), but just to see the great many possible lines there are which all go in different directions. At that point, I think it is easier to stop second guessing yourself and instead have the confidence to justify the moves you have played.


Thanks, I'll see if that gives me more ideas on how to play. I've been looking at josekipedia.com, which offers more variations, but comments on far fewer of them.


Thoughts:
Having looked through some more combinations, the high pincer doesn't look very good due to failing to secure me anything at all. It seems like with the low pincer, I will get either the right or the top, and seeing as I have the other corners, it shouldn't matter which one it is.

Expected continuations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 8 6 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 9 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, I am also concerned about the following follow-up:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In that case, I'll simply sacrifice the pincer stone and be happy with what I have on the top.

Oh, and just to Tempt Fate a little: It's only the second (or third, depending on the count) move, how bad can it be?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #9 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:15 am 
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topazg wrote:
EdLee wrote:
@topazg: That should be :w1: :mrgreen:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Oh the fun conversations I've had with people on this one. I've been told both "the handicap stones are move 1", and "the handicap stones don't count as a move" so often I figure I'd just go with the comfort of the White numbers being even numbers :P

If it annoys enough people, I'll change it!


I know that the Japanese literature starts handicap games with :w1:. :)

Ing rules have free placement of handicap stones, and may number all of them :b1:, I don't know.

What rules are you playing by?

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #10 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:23 am 
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Sevis wrote:
Until recently, handicap games have been rather a weak point for me: no matter whether I had gotten stones or given stones, I'd end up fighting too much, not seeing something, and losing a big group because of it. Hopefully, playing at a slower pace will help with that.

Eventually, I understood what `don't fight' means, and got a little practice at playing a (in my eyes) quarter-decent looking fuseki, at which point it became a good deal easier to simply use those handicap stones to claim territory.

However, as was pointed out to me today, that would be far more oriented at winning than at learning, so I think I'm going to try to focus on fighting and reading this time around, with a little more focus on influence than territory.


When I was starting out, I used to fight like hell, and, like you, ended up losing my groups instead of killing the White groups. For me the breakthrough came when I only lost two groups per game instead of three. ;)

I have no regrets. Had I tried to nail down territory I think that it would have stunted my growth.

Good luck!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: topazg
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #11 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:37 am 
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Japanese rules I think, or at least a vague smiley interpretation of them using territory scoring ;)

Ok, I'll renumber I think, seems to be what the majority would vote for if there was some way of voting I suspect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here's some fun. I could respond, but :w1: still occupies a key shape invasion point between :b1: and :b3: . In an even game, I'd respond without question, but Black is spoiled for choices here of how to develop his stones, and I don't want to be stuck in a small box. As a result, I'm going to choose to do something that works with what I have in mind in the top right.


UNHIDDEN:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I've picked a move that works nicely with it. Of course, Black could do something different, but one problem at a time. What's important is that I have a plan!
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #12 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:48 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't wait! :mrgreen:

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post by Bill Spight was liked by: robinz
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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #13 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:19 am 
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That's not going to happen, Bill, seeing as I'd rather try something new in every corner.

Playing anything except a pincer would leave my top-right stone overly weak, though. The higher pincer doesn't feel very right to me, though, and I would expect white to try to slide under it and secure the top anyway. In any case, it may build some influence, but it looks misplaced.

The following, on the other hand, look okay-ish:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . 3 . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White can take the corner, but will have trouble invading top-right. a and b all look like good follow-ups for white (in the case of a, I would expect to play on the four line above :w3:, but that's claimed to be a mistake of direction. I guess I'll play the move going exactly the other way, although I don't see the logic of that yet.).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . d . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White will have the corner, but black will have potential on the left. In this variation, I would expect white to lay some extra claim on the corner or to make a base, and then tenuki.

The first one looks attractive initially, but I don't see for white to both take the top-left corner and attack the top-right, so I'm going to go with the second.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by Sevis on Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #14 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:43 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b4: seems a bit funny to me. It does have some genuine merit with respect to developing the left hand side, so I need to be slightly careful in how I choose to play in this corner, but I'm happy enough to take the 3-3 straight away with this one. No matter which side Black blocks, :b4: ends up looking slightly oddly placed. Being consistent with his last move, I expect the C16 block when I invade, and I have a sneaking suspicion black can take sente to play a big move on the left hand side.

As a result, I'm trying to play in a way that doesn't make it easy for Black to nail any particularly large results. If Black protects his corner in the lower left, I take the 3-3 in the top left. If Black responds in the top left, I take F4 and make things complicated. The second I start committing extra stones I start losing flexibility, so I want to feel confident in the result when I do.

FWIW sevis, I think it's precisely because you have a 4-4 in the top right, wanting to develop the top edge, that the pincer looks interesting to me. I quite like the pincer in your first diagram, it looks like an interesting way to play :)
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Offline Sevis
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #15 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:47 am 
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Response probably coming in around four hours, so far my thoughts:

This one is a hard one. I am very tempted to simple use the wide low pincer that I had considered the previous turn, but it feels like it is lacking something. My top-left is already the strongest position I have, and playing a third line stone there doesn't look like a good idea. Also, there is currently no threat of white sliding under the stones directly.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, eidogo claims that the low pincer would be better than a -- however, that doesn't take into account the other stones... b isn't mentioned at all, but it feels right, and I'm curious how it'd turn out.

I think it's time to start sacrificing things, and the lower-left corner seems like the perfect thing for that. I've spent more stones in the top-left, so strengthening that while limiting your development sounds like a better idea than hoping to gain some points in the bottom. After that, places around L16, R8 and K3 will all look big, and seeing as it'll be my turn, I'll have a chance to get two of them. The bottom-left will still have some aji, and if white doesn't play under it first, I can try to live small or reach out into the centre.

Looking at the joseki for the top-left corner again, it shows C10 as a necessary stone. I wonder if the one-intersection difference will really matter in the top left -- I think I'll stick with D10, just to experiment.

Thanks, I was almost certain I'd play it (the second diagram was more of an excuse for me to tell myself I am not forgetting to look for alternatives). In hindsight, I think it would overly emphasise the top, while I now might have an even bigger piece on the left.


Update:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Decided to go with the high wide pincer, I don't think the left-bottom corner is worth enough to justify letting white expand upwards.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #16 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:51 pm 
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topazg wrote:
Ok, I'll renumber
:salute:
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #17 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:54 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The value of keeping Black fighting for space in the corner is not to be underestimated in a handicap game. I've done no reading, I just know this is annoying to be on the receiving end of. My goal here is to get a whole board presence out of the opening, and caps are beautifully obstructive moves.

Very important to note: I don't actually care strongly about any stone I have played so far. They are all, in a sense, probes... when my opponent picks something that he values, I pick a sequence I like. Until then, I want to keep upping the options I have available.


@sevis specifically:

"Sacrificing" a corner is very brave. In general terms, they are the diamond mines of the Go board. You better know what the value of your compensation is if you are truly prepared to let one be sacrificed :)
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #18 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:55 pm 
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EDIT: Unhidden after :w27:.
Sevis wrote:
I don't think the left-bottom corner is worth enough to justify letting white expand upwards.
:b6: is fine, but the lower left corner is also very big:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by EdLee on Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #19 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:00 pm 
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topazg wrote:
EdLee wrote:
I like even numbers, too. :) A little survey shows the following editors all say it is :w1: :

CGoban
gIGo
inline SGF editor we use here :P
MultiGo
SmartGo

Is there an editor out there that says it is :w2: ? :mrgreen:


I think Dariush does :D


Should be :w5:, right?

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 99. topazg vs sevis
Post #20 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:02 pm 
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Note #12 unhidden. :)

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Visualize whirled peas.

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