12

Regardless of the tone of some of our disagreements in the previous thread, I have a very high opinion of Ed's comments and helpfulness. I consider him to be one of the most pleasant and helpful people on L19, and I voted for him in the mod poll because I thought he'd make such a good one (and still do).

He says he's 1k on KGS which means his AGA 4k is a bit out of date, and he doesn't like "mickey mouse" 30 minute game time controls, which means an environment such as Malkovich games are pretty much perfect for him. He clearly doesn't post nonsense, and thinks carefully about variations before making comments, and I suspect his attitude to this game will be the same. As a result, I'm suspicious that he's probably favourite for this one (and magicwand has an extremely high opinion of him, which counts a fair bit to me as magicwand keeps kicking my butt), which is why I've set it even (aside from the fact I prefer even games anyway). Still, may the best man win and all that, and I'll try to give it the best shot I can

I'll try to post some useful ideas and thoughts as we go, and hopefully this will be an interesting game for all!

That arrogant man!! How dare he disagree with me?? I will crush him!

Is that better?

Let stones of fire rain onto the goban in a maelstrom of chaotic destruction, and let harmony and order rise out of the ashes (and a winning position would be nice ). There can be only one.

I'm going for something unorthodox here. By unorthodox, I mean "what normal people do". Seriously, I have a habit of playing different things just to be different. As White, I keep playing disruptively (on move 4, heaven help Black if he plays a 3-4, because I completely disregard that empty corner). I always think of it as my way of stopping Black from developing what he wants and forcing the game onto my terms, but I think it's a bit more like:



So, enough chasing and nipping at Black's ankles, and a bit more honest open play. If pro's can do it, so can I. Of course, I actually happen to be Black here, so the last paragraph is moot, but it's the spirit I want to play this game in.

Here goes. I hate the Chinese, what am I doing? Must ... be ... firm.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . d . . . c . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If makes a shimari at (a) or (b), will approach (c) direction;
if approaches at (d), will approach (a) or (b) direction -- miai.
Otherwise, if Chinese opening (e) or (f), or approaches at (g), I'll ponder it then.

I have such a bad feeling about this ...

The Chinese opening it is. (a) and (b) are miai.
This could be a very messy fighting game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . 1 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Why are you playing the Chinese if (as seems clear from your comments) you hate it? (I guess the comments are at least partly tongue-in-cheek, but still, I detect some genuine unease.) There are no shortage of ways black can play at the start of a game, so why deliberately choose one you dislike?

Because the God of Go doesn't have openings that he is uncomfortable with. My failure to cope with Chinese highlights a weakness of my game. If I don't face it, how do I hope to get past that particular hurdle? I view Go as a game of self-improvement as well as good fun, it's a sandbox to go into zones of discomfort with an open mind and challenge myself to rethink the way I think.

I could grossly over-egg the situation and say "There is no fear but fear itself", but the only way to improve is to play the sort of situations I suck in, and hope that I learn something (especially in a Malkovich game).

Seems standard so far; the quiet before the storm.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Considering one of these, although probably "a" or "b":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O 5 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 9 X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . 7 X 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O . 3 4 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Will play later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 . X 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 O . 3 4 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Actually, this is a joseki I've been wanting to try for ages, and was one of the reasons I misjudged the sevis corner (the 3-3 aji is much higher here with the low approach stone)... maybe I should do this. See, I'm doing it again. I want to mess things up and make them complicated, I spy a personality flaw here somewhere.

I need to sit on the naughty step. But, Go is supposed to be enjoyable, so I may as well see if I can have fun with something interesting like this.

FWIW, this isn't just blind craziness. The left hand side is very important, as White has facing 4-4s, and his low pincer de-prioritises the top somewhat, so a counter pincer has a lot of sense behind it anyway. I really strongly considered invading the 3-3 because I'm not sure if it is best for White to block facing the left edge without central support, but if I want the left side anyway, I may as well just play it. I've started preferring this move slightly to the tighter double approach at D14 - mostly because I've seen it a few times in more recent professional play, but also because a 3d friend sucker punched me with it in another game.

So, let the fun begin:

my first instinct is as below.
i dont like black's move but i can not see any way to show it is a bad move..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

personally i rather have my stone as below than black's last move..
is helpful in 3-3 invasion but other move is....just laying down the stone in empty space.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm at my friends place so can't really provide diagrams right now, but you are missing the point of Topazgs move Magicwand. His counter-pincer is a recent innovation (last 5 years or so) and has been played many times professionly. The main idea is that, if white play the move you suggested, black will enter the 3-3. After the normal joseki play out, blacks stone will be further from the wall which will be better.

(White will block from the top (C16) (and let black connect his 3-3 to his first approach at top.

If White blocks with D17, Black can push at C16. If White then proceed to hane (C15), Black can cut at (D15). This variation (the one with block at D17) was played between Lee Changho and Chang Hao in 2006 when the move started to get experimented with. I remember I was in China that time and was also amazed =)

I do believe that you will understand from just my text, perhaps you can provide the diagrams for the weaker players Magicwand?

thank you for your info.. i think i remember that game.
after my post..i thought about the board and and saw the merit of black's move.

but i rather not play his move.

there were time below diag were considered joeski..(which i disagreed to some point)
and black's two space high pincer look worse than below diag i my opinion.
i am not going to say what professionals play is wrong but i will say it is not to my liking.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i guess your variation is as below.
and i did some continuation..but i dont think it is good for black.
let me know if you beg to differ.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 6 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O 8 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah this last variation is great for black. Next, I can hane at G16, and if you cut you will be in great danger.. I can provide some variations tomorrow or later tonight. I don't think White can counter-pincer. Usually White finish the joseki by playing at B16 first, in which Black answer with an extension on the leftside.