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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #61 Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:54 am 
Oza
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My first impulse was also that that diagram is dubious, but: first, capturing that clump of stones may be smaller than the monkey jump; second, I think LexC is insinuating that the monkey jump seriously weakens W, such that he would welcome a chance to make a wall hovering above it.

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Post #62 Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:15 am 
Honinbo
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Did not expect this. Reading :w1: (sleep time :)):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #63 Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:19 am 
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That "1" is always a bit suspect. Here black can just clamp.


@jts:
That jump is pretty much completely useless if that lump of cutting stones are captured.

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Post #64 Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:24 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm38
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Variations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W B gets more points in the corner.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Does not work for B.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . 5 |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Instead of :b37:, B probably should have done this exchange first, in sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 4 . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #65 Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:43 am 
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I will be disconnected of the internet until Monday

I don't understand the purpose of this move I read the following sequence
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm39
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O 5 4 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #66 Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:59 am 
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I don't see why black can't just block?

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #67 Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:18 am 
Lives in gote
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Black just connects I don't understand why we're playing endgame now :)

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Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #68 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:23 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm39
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

White 38 seems aji keshi

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Post #69 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:24 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm40
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Eye shape and reduce B's wall at the same time.
Cannot complain about the :w38:- :b39: exchange, as :w38:/ ( :b37: at :w38:) seems double sente.

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #70 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:18 am 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


It's time to take a big point

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Post #71 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:31 pm 
Honinbo
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This week it's my turn to recover from jet lag. Will post when my brain clears up. :)

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Post #72 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:09 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm42
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Still unsure of the direction. But I think this helps strengthen (a) a bit? :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm42
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #73 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:37 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm43
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


What I read
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm43
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . 2 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . 3 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . 9 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm43
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . 7 O 0 . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . 8 2 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 6 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm43
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 9 O 8 . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . 7 O 4 5 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X 1 6 . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #74 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:14 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . b O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . 1 B c . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
First feeling is of course :w1: hane, after which B has (a) counter-hane or (b) cross cut.
The :bc: attach is a standard sequence and it's in Ishida (which I cannot consult :)) and it's in a few other recent Malkovich games.
If I remember correctly, in one variation, B ends up with some thickness, which is probably what B wants here.
Another idea is the outside hane :white:(c) and fight the other way.
The real game starts here. Read, read...

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Post #75 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:30 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm44
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Many (interesting) variations. Both B and W should come out OK. Let's take this one move at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #76 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm45
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


As I read

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Post #77 Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm46
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Many variations. Really look forward to studying this in Ishida and Takao, etc. after the game.

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #78 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:56 am 
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The second volume of Takao, which deals with the 4*4 point is not yet published in English. Ishida shows this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , . . 1 X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . a b . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


According to Ishida 'a' and 'b' are roughly equal moves for White. All its examples derive from White 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . X . . . . . 3 2 . W X . X . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . 1 . . . . . |
$$| . . . 9 . . . . . . 6 . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If Black has a stone on the top left star-point, he can play like this and build a framework.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . O . . . X . 2 1 . . . . . . |
$$| . . O , . . . . . . . 3 W X . X . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


When the corner belongs to White. It goes like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc continuation
$$ --------------------------------------
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . O . . . X . O X 1 . . . . . |
$$| . . O , . . . . . . . X O X . X . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . 6 . X O . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . a . 5 3 . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


According to Ishida, this is a middle-game-Joseki. White can next aim at 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc continuation 2
$$ --------------------------------------
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 a . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . O . . . X . O X 1 3 . . . . |
$$| . . O , . . . . . . . X O X 4 X . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . X O 7 9 b . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 8 . 0 O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:w3: is possible but White gets squeezed and hurts his stones on the right. After a-b-c, Black will throw-in left of :w1: , then play 'd'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc wrong
$$ --------------------------------------
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . O . . . X 9 2 1 a . . . . . |
$$| . . O , . . . . . . 6 3 W X . X . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . b 7 4 5 . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


It's wrong to push on the other side with :b5: . According to Ishida: One should push on the side one cuts. 'a' and 'b' are Miai and the situation is out of control - but seems ladder-dependent.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------------
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . O . . . X . 2 1 5 . . . . . |
$$| . . O , . . . . . . 6 3 W X . X . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4 . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


To play like this is cowardly, according to Ishida. White gets the superior result because of the Ponnuki. Black just connects on the second line.

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 Post subject: Re: 165 LexC vs EdLee
Post #79 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:24 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm47
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

That I read

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Post #80 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:36 am 
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The :b47: extend seems to be from what I remember in Ishida.
But I also looked at the ponnuki variations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . a X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . b . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . 4 O , . . . . . B . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
In general, B usually would not allow the :w2: ponnuki,
but in this case...? -- because of the tengen stone :bc:, and because
after :b3: W gets a broken shape. Then, (a) and (b) direction miai?
The :b3: atari doesn't seem to work for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b5: at :bt:, :b7: connects
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . . O Y 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 6 X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Also:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . 3 X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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