MFoG doesn't really use the time it has now! We never even get close to starting the 4 overtime segments that I set. (That it doesn't seem to use all of its time really surprises me! On the other hand, I'm used to chess time controls, which give a set amount of time to make a set number of moves, and I'm still not comfortable with Go time management.)

I tried setting it to 1 dan this morning and was lost (abandoned game) by about move 100 or so, even though I took a 9-stone handicap. I'm going to review Shape Up! and see if I can make better shape moves before trying 1 dan again. Also, I need to think more about playing multipurpose moves, rather than responding locally everywhere to MFoG. Thanks again for your advice.

That is actually weird in a way. If "it's a game" when you take 5 stones against the 3kyu level it should be a game when you take 9 stones against the 1 dan level.

BTW, I also haven't seen it get into its extra time periods. But I think that is because it is trying to manage time so as not to get into time trouble too early. Or possible using as a factor how much time its opponent has. I have noticed that it doesn't always seem to use the same amount of time per move.

Maybe all the extra stones are confusing me! Or, more seriously, I start following it everywhere and suddenly its disparate attacks have magically combined to cut me apart. I sort of noticed I was doing the same thing against 3 kyu, and I played much better after I jumped down to 6 stones and then 5 stones.

As for time management, please notice that in the game posted in this thread I only used 3:53 for the first 100 moves, but MFoG used only 0:46! At move 200 I had used 9:51, and MFoG had still only used 1:25.

Like I mentioned before, typically MFoG plays almost instantly, which puts me in 5-minute chess mode! (An old brain pattern from my chess club days.) I'll see if setting 60 minutes for the first control slows it down.

They probably are. One of the most valuable (and difficult) things we want to learn from handi games
is how to make good use of all the stones on the board.
( Actually, this is true all the time; but perhaps it's more pronounced in high handi games ? )

IMHO you should not be using the program as an opponent. What's the point? You should watch the program's evaluation of the game (I assume this is possible in MFOG) and then explore the possible variations when you choose a move that it evaluates as poor. The program should be a teacher, not an opponent.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Aidoneus, why don't you play humans?

OK, this indicates a problem you have. Ignore for a moment how much or little time your opponent is using (except to notice whether in time trouble).

You aren't taking time to think. You are moving impulsively, not looking around. You have to try to find some way to break yourself of this bad habit of taking only 2-3 seconds to decide on a move. Probably not unrelated to the symptom you describe of "following".

And note that I have the problem myself and haven't yet found a solution. Still trying various things to see what might work. You might try things like sitting on your hands (getting them away form the mouse or touchpad if playing against the computer or an on-line human opponent and not having a stone in your fingers when playing against a human face to face. There are other things you might try. For example, set your time to 60 min and have a 10 second timer so you can practice not placing a stone till the timer dings.

<< For those suggesting human opponents, that isn't completely relevant to this problem. Got to learn to manage time according to one's own time, not how fast or slow the opponent moves. >>

It's more than possible with MFOG 12 and that is a very good suggestion. Because MFOG uses a go AI to construct a set of plausible next moves and then at the MCTS uses its MC algorithm to evaluate for which is best it is possible for MFOG to give a "go reason" for the move even if not why that reason is more compelling than the other options.

Try that mode? Turn on that option and/or explore the other options for teaching.

Playing ranked games preclude any help during the game. I do use its game score graph after the game to see where it thinks I went wrong. Perhaps I am deluding myself, but I think that the opportunity to play better players than me--even a computer--is helping me improve. (I haven't lost my first 100 games yet; heck, I haven't even played 100 games.)



Where? KGS seems to have very few DDKs. When I request games against anyone, I lose patience after about 5 minutes of staring at my screen. As I mentioned before, I may create another account and lie about my rank, say 8-9 kyu, so that I can get some games before my rank goes back to DDK.

I can usually get games at Tygem, though the skill of other 18 kyus seems to vary wildly. Even there, though, I sometimes get messages that no opponents at my (lowly!) level are available. Its hard to raise my rank at either site without getting games!

So, I like the idea of playing at KGS with its handicap system but don't have the patience to camp out waiting. (Plus, it's hard to avoid interruptions from my darling wife if I am just sitting motionless... ) Meanwhile, I will continue to play occasionally at Tygem and hope that I can advance enough to get out of the 18-kyu starter class.

Please understand, I'm not all that rank conscious, I just want to play some games! And MFoG is always there, any time of day or night, waiting when my wife goes to the gym or shopping. (Just like I used to jump into and out of World of Warcraft before I kicked that addiction! Life is a game, right? )

When I grew up, 40 moves in 2-2.5 hours with 20 moves in 1 hour for subsequent segments was pretty standard for serious chess games. (Even grandmasters now must play faster games to encourage sponsorship. The same thing seems to be happening with Go.) I had no problem using all of my time--my middle name is Sitzfleisch. I also have played lots of 5-minute games in chess clubs. I don't have a good feel, yet, for what is a slow time setting with Go. So, when the program plays instantly, I too often take its lead. I really haven't had that problem playing people online.

When I was starting out, I didn't have any computers to play against. Or DDKs, either. I had to make do with a 5 kyu and a couple of dan players.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Lucky you!!

Sort of like my situation with chess as a kid, except that there were no masters in Northwest Indiana. As a matter of fact, there were no masters in Indiana, though we did have grandmaster Robert Byrne in Indianapolis.

Waiting for my wife to get ready to go to an open house for one of my relatives, so I started playing 9x9 with Igo. I just won my first game with White! According to one discussion--http://senseis.xmp.net/?RankAsGivenByIgowin--my strength is now 17-13 kyu. I'll have to have a drink at the party to celebrate!

Edit: Maybe it wasn't a total fluke. I now have won back-to-back games with White. I guess I'll have to have two drinks now! I'm kinda afraid to play again before we leave and ruin my excuse for drinking.

That is, if my wife ever gets out of the bathroom...

Just do the math. A 300 move game is not an exceptionally long game so that's 150 moves by you. If your time for that were 30 minutes, that'd be an average of 12 seconds per move. Normal go blitz is like chess blitz, 10 seconds.

Like chess, modern serious go is being played faster (same thing about sponsors).

But I think right now what you should be working on is breaking the habit of "following" and "moving in tempo". See what happens to your play if you use a 10 second timer (don't touch a stone till it beeps).