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 Post subject: 13k Game Review please ?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:23 am 
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I am black, Comments about opening are particularly welcome. I did realise that At 20-25, I should have attacked from top, may be ?


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 Post subject: Re: 13k Game Review please ?
Post #2 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:15 am 
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You mentioned comments about the opening, but the fate of the game swung back and forth several times in the late endgame.

After White 235, you passed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . X O . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . X O . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X O O O O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O O X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . O . O X O O X X X X X . . |
$$ | X X O O X X O O O . O . O X X O X . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O . . O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X W O X O X X X O X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X . O O X . O X X O X X |
$$ | . . . X X X . X O O X X . O . O O O X |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X O X X O . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X X O X O O O . O X X |
$$ | . . . O X X X X X O O O X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X O X O X X O . O X . O X O X . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O O O X X . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . O . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There are a few endgame moves left, so it's a bit early to pass, but most importantly, after you passed, white was able to kill the four stones in the lower left.
That capture cost you more than 8 points. Since the final score was White +7.5, losing those stones was a game-losing mistake. Let's take a minute to look at them.

Right now, white cannot cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 White's cut fails
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . X O . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . X O . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X O O O O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O O X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . O . O X O O X X X X X . . |
$$ | X X O O X X O O O . O . O X X O X . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O . . O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X W O X O X X X O X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X . O O X . O X X O X X |
$$ | . . . X X X . X O O X X . O . O O O X |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X O X X O . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X X O X O O O . O X X |
$$ | . 7 . O X X X X X O O O X X X O O X . |
$$ | . 6 X X O X O X X O . O X . O X O X . |
$$ | 8 5 X O O O O O O O O X X . . X X . . |
$$ | . 3 1 X X O O . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 X O . O . O . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But notice that black's capturing group on the outside only wins the capturing race by one liberty. That means if those black stones lose a liberty, this sequence doesn't work for us anymore (foreshadowing).

After you pass, white plays to cut, and you block like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 White has plans to cause trouble
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . X O . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . X O . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X O O O O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O O X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . O . O X O O X X X X X . . |
$$ | X X O O X X O O O . O . O X X O X . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O . . O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X O O X O X X X O X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X . O O X . O X X O X X |
$$ | . . . X X X . X O O X X . O . O O O X |
$$ | . . O 3 1 2 . O X O X X O . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . O X . O . X X O X O O O . O X X |
$$ | . . . O X X X X X O O O X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X O X O X X O . O X . O X O X . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O O O X X . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . O . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After white connects with :w3:, black has to connect with :b4: to prevent losing the large black group. So far your moves were forced. Then white plays this :w5: :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Forced to connect?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . X O . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . X O . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X O O O O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O O X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . O . O X O O X X X X X . . |
$$ | X X O O X X O O O . O . O X X O X . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O . . O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X O O X O X X X O X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X . O O X . O X X O X X |
$$ | . . . X X X a X O O X X . O . O O O X |
$$ | . . O O O X 5 O X O X X O . O . O O O |
$$ | . c . O X 4 O . X X O X O O O . O X X |
$$ | . . b O X X X X X O O O X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X O X O X X O . O X . O X O X . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O O O X X . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . O . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It looks like this move is threatening to cut off your stones, so you responded with :b6: at "a". Actually the cut doesn't work. Do you see why? Black does have problems though, since your left side has been cut in half. Those splitting white stones could be a real problem for you. Instead of :b6: at a, I think a move like b or c would look better, although I can't read out the whole thing.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 White's attack continues
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . X O . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . X O . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X O O O O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O O X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . O . O X O O X X X X X . . |
$$ | X X O O X X O O O . O . O X X O X . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O . . O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X O O X O X X X O X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X . O O X . O X X O X X |
$$ | . . . X X X X X O O X X . O . O O O X |
$$ | . . O O O X O O X O X X O . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . O X X O . X X O X O O O . O X X |
$$ | . . 7 O X X X X X O O O X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X O X O X X O . O X . O X O X . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O O O X X . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . O . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now white plays 7. This is a scary play for black, because of that shortage of liberties earlier. Watch what happens now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 One liberty is enough
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . X O . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . X O . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X O O O O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O O X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . O . O X O O X X X X X . . |
$$ | X X O O X X O O O . O . O X X O X . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O . . O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X O O X O X X X O X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X . O O X . O X X O X X |
$$ | . . . X X X X X O O X X . O . O O O X |
$$ | . . O O O X O O X O X X O . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . O X X O . X X O X O O O . O X X |
$$ | . 7 O O X X X X X O O O X X X O O X . |
$$ | . 6 X X O X O X X O . O X . O X O X . |
$$ | . 5 X O O O O O O O O X X . . X X . . |
$$ | . 3 1 X X O O . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 X O . O . O . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure exactly the best way to prevent this, maybe a sequence like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Stopping the cut
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . X O . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . X O . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X O O O O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X X X X O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O O X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . O . O X O O X X X X X . . |
$$ | X X O O X X O O O . O . O X X O X . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X O . . O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X O O X O X X X O X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X . O O X . O X X O X X |
$$ | . . . X X X X X O O X X . O . O O O X |
$$ | . . O O O X O O X O X X O . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . O X X O . X X O X O O O . O X X |
$$ | . 9 7 O X X X X X O O O X X X O O X . |
$$ | . 8 X X O X O X X O . O X . O X O X . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O O O X X . . X X . . |
$$ | . 0 . X X O O . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . O . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . O X X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you're not careful white can still cause trouble here, but I think black should be able to kill the white stones, since both sides are independently alive. (Don't take my word for it!)
As it went in the game, you blocked on the other side with :b8:, and white ends up capturing the four stones and also getting a ko to live, which luckily for you black was able to win.
The pass, the unnessary block at :b6:, and the wrong approach at :b8: means you had 3 chances to save those stones and win the game. As Bill says, endgame is about fighting strength.


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Post #3 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:16 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi saisandeep,
Quote:
Comments about opening are particularly welcome.
No.
As you can see in post 2 and here, most of the biggest problems and mistakes are Not in your opening. This is true not just for this game but for all your games in general. ( Unless you make a huge mistake in the opening and lose 30 points... but even in that case, it may not be game over, especially at these levels. )

:b17: M3. ( W has a weakness at J3. )

:b29: o2. ( Your M4 stone is light; if W wants it, let W take it;
as you already tenuki'd on :b17: and let W hurt it with M3.
Your follow-up M2 atari is much bigger (later, in the end game )).

:b31: M6 is a shared vital point.

:b41: - :w42: Terrible exchange for B. Problem in basic shapes.
See Toothpaste and related pages.

( On :b35: , what's your plan if W cuts at E15 ?
For :b35: , :b39: , :b41: , it seems you played these 3 moves without a clear plan, or clear reading. )

:b73: - :w74: W has the option to first atari P13 or o13 before connecting --
did you read this before your :b73: peep ?

:w78: o14 atari.

:w84: R12. ( o14 atari still waiting. )

:white: 100 J7.

:white: 110 Atari o14 still there; you probably have to give up your 2 stones.

:white: 112 Pass.

:white: 120 E5 atari, then tiger's mouth D4 in sente.

:white: 128 Pass. E9 hane.

:white: 136 S5. You didn't read carefully :black: 135.


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 Post subject: Re: 13k Game Review please ?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:01 pm 
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In this game the opening was OK, although I would advise to pay attention to how the opponent's positions are strengthened in any exchange. :b11: should have been at Q10 to prevent :w12:. If Black has 2 corners and White has 2 corners, neither side is really falling behind. At this point strategic development is the most important thing, so no need to worry too much about local gains or losses unless their impact on said development is substantial. In the actual game White got to set up a base in what should have been Black's part of the board. Maybe White would have played at C10, after which Black would place H17 to disrupt White's moyo by afterwards jumping to either E17 or L17 and setting up base. My understanding of the opening is always changing, so consider this just one of several lines of play.

The exchange of :w20: to :w30: gave White some outward influence, which was put to good use later on in the game. Playing :b21: at N5 would seem a better move as it avoids forcing White to fix up her weaknesses (something I saw a lot of in this game), while protecting the cut at N4. After this, play somewhere else such as H17, wherein Black can disrupt White's moyo by jumping to either E17 or L17 to set up a base. :b43: should be at E12, since the C12 stone is not worth saving at this point. :b47: is ill-timed since White is already strong in that part of the board. I would have played this at Q17 if I had to play there. The weakest White group on the board in in the bottom right quadrant and this group can be harassed to help Black gain territory. Why not play :b47: there? R8 might be a good place to start.

If possible fighting should be avoided during the opening, but not all is lost if fighting does break out in this phase of the game. It's just that a high degree of skill is needed to control the outcome thereof. If you are not careful your stones may live, but your opponent's stones will have outward influence toward the center and if there is a friendly 2-rensei or 3-rensei pattern in place on the opposite side of the board, there will be a lot of catching up to do.

Black 217 was not necessary since all it did was connect two living groups. This is indicative of something from which I still suffer and that is following your opponent around the board. At this point in the game Black should be closing up any gaps in his position on the lower left corner of the board.

Passing at Black 233 was not advisable since the cut at c3 is still a problem for Black. The White stones on d6, d7, and c8 still have aji, or the potential to cause problems. In the exchange to Black 263 a ko fight ensues and Black loses territory in the process. Playing Black 233 at b7 would have prevented all this.

Given that you are 13k, life & death and tesuji are the main skills you should develop at this level. At least if you relish the joy of killing a large group of your opponent's stones, proficiency in these two skill categories will go a long way for you. Opening takes more time to master since appreciating its importance requires knowing how it influences the development of the middle game, which in turn requires knowing how this affects the development of the endgame. Endgame has a lot of life & death and tesuji situations. Since beginners do not yet possess the knowledge and experience needed to understand how one stage of the game segues into the next, when facing off against stronger players they often take Black and accept handicap stones to compensate for this deficiency.


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 Post subject: Re: 13k Game Review please ?
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:48 pm 
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saisandeep wrote:
I am black, Comments about opening are particularly welcome.


:b73: is a "forcing move", but not necessarily one you need play right now. And in this game it turns out badly. Because you made thin shape, which turned into heavy shape, and then into a dead group.

You should just not have got involved in all of that. Put it down to experience.

In fact, while :b67: is a standard capping attack, the conditions are not so favourable. The way to handle such situations is to strengthen your position first. In other words, be patient.

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Post #6 Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:47 pm 
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tekesta wrote:
In this game the opening was OK, although I would advise to pay attention to how the opponent's positions are strengthened in any exchange.

THIS is the main thing that I am missing in my game. Thanks a lot.

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Post #7 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:16 pm 
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Some points about the opening.

Move 6: When white splits it should normally be on the third line, this way when black approaches from the left or right, white will make a two space base typically.
This move by white has a weakness, because it is on the fourth line in that it can’t easily make a base, white will need two more moves to make a base on this side.

Move 7: Approaching at M3 threatens to cut under the stone. M3 helps the open corner in the lower right, and pushes white towards the strong left corner. Playing the fourth line here is difficult as when white plays at G3 to take advantage of the weakness of white’s group would mean playing a slow move to both secure white’s corner and attack white, when M3 would do both jobs for a single move.

Move 15: This move is kind of painful to play, I can see black wants to protect the corner and playing high at P4 leaves a weakness that white can try and slide under. This is a good example of how if move 7 was at M3 this move could be at P4.

At this point in the game it is worth nothing that a two space base like whites on the right side which is pincered closely like this can’t live easily, so this is somewhere black should look to attack, white really needs to jump out from this group to allow it to run or get more eye shape.

Move 16: I feel this move really needs to be answered, again the stone at M4 seems misplaced, and maybe this is why black didn’t answer, not wanting to play more stones here? Black M3 White K6 would be a normal continuation here, or white tenuki’s elsewhere, if white jumps black can jump and the group on the right is looking weaker.

Move 17: Playing this star point makes the enclosure at C5 look a little odd, if Black wants to play high then it would be better to have its enclosure high this stone needs two more stones to allow it to make territory, and without more high stones to work together with it is more like a weak stone, white can approach it from the top and get a nice stone helping enclose the corner.

Move 18 – 19: When white plays like this and black blocks, black ends up getting a weakness at N4. It would have been nicer if black had blocked at M3 earlier.

Move 31: I’m not sure on the spacing on this stone, when white plays at K17 Black has little room and trying to pressure the corner is hard for black as it is a bit too far, the shape black gets is a bit poor. The approach at F17 seems ok, even if black gets pincered if white blocks in either direction the result is still ok for black. Another approach at L17 looks interesting too, white’s stones are on the fourth line, and weak, so black can threaten to slide under and then get something at the top.

A general theme in your opening is that you aren’t seeing the weaknesses of your opponent and taking advantage of them, at the same time you are making weak groups as well.

Try to think about which moves are sente, and which have follow-ups, if a move both is sente and has follow ups then it is likely good.
Don’t be afraid of making aggressive moves, taking a star point might be safe and simple, but it doesn’t pressure your opponent, it is usually better to approach and force your opponent into an exchange than give up sente, if there is an equally big point for your opponent, then the exchange is even and neither gains, if they get an advantage from a sente play then the exchange becomes poor.

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