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Offline mongus
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #141 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:53 pm 
Dies with sente

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Ah yes, true. That would have been better. It's just the aforementioned advice was more pertinent, as I had that position twice in the game. I actually thought I was being clever, thinking if my opponent did take the stone it was ok because I could just cover it easily.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X 1 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


So, no point wasting a move on it.

Reflecting on this, I can see that this sort of mindset actually gets me into trouble an awful lot. It this game it actually did. My opponent was able to use the weakness I had left in the bottom right to ensure his fragile central group was safe. Had I not left that weakness I would have been in a much stronger position.

It is very hard to know the difference between a strong move and a slow move. Perhaps it is one of those eternal Go dilemmas.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #142 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:29 am 
Honinbo

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mongus wrote:
I actually thought I was being clever, thinking if my opponent did take the stone it was ok because I could just cover it easily.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X 1 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . a O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


So, no point wasting a move on it.

Reflecting on this, I can see that this sort of mindset actually gets me into trouble an awful lot.


Actually, your basic argument is sound. The trouble is, you did not consider the effect of local weaknesses, indicated at "a" and "b".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X 1 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


In this case, without those weaknesses, it makes much more sense for Black not to connect at 1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . b 2 a . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X 1 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


But even in this situation, the culprit is the hanging connection at "a". The solid connection, :b1:, threatens "b" but leaves no weakness behind if White answers with :w2:.

Quote:
It this game it actually did. My opponent was able to use the weakness I had left in the bottom right to ensure his fragile central group was safe. Had I not left that weakness I would have been in a much stronger position.


In that case, too, it is a problem of your own making.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . X . O 1 2 B O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b26: threatens to cut the White in two, but it is an overplay. :w27: puts the question, do you save :b26: or :bc:?

Quote:
It is very hard to know the difference between a strong move and a slow move. Perhaps it is one of those eternal Go dilemmas.


As you get stronger your judgement about that, and many other things, will improve. :D

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: mongus
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Offline mongus
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #143 Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:08 pm 
Dies with sente

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Here's a mistake I'm surprised I haven't encountered before. Then I made it twice in last nights game.

I'm White. In the end game I want to eke out every last point so I decide to play at a :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O . . . |
$$ . X . X O . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X a |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Of course this does not go well at all :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O . . . |
$$ . X . X O . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O O 4 . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X X X 1 |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 |[/go]


Ug. It's a good reminder to always be on the look out for weaknesses before moving.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #144 Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:38 pm 
Judan

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mongus, you are right you should check for weaknesses before moving; can you find what Black can do in the first diagram if it's his move?

Edit: don't scroll down if you don't want to see the answer.


Last edited by Uberdude on Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #145 Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:39 pm 
Gosei

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Ah yes, the "second-line chomp." This will not be the last time you encounter it :) It's often more valuable than it seems to have three stones on the second line rather than two for this reason; you have time to capture the cutting stone when Black makes that cut. You will also often see first-line throw-ins to set this up.

[Edited to remove the answer to Uberdude's Socratic question, which I accidentally wrote before he asked it.]
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Offline mongus
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #146 Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:56 pm 
Dies with sente

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Just spotted another weakness :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O . . . |
$$ . X . X O 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:oops:
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Offline mongus
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #147 Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:00 pm 
Dies with sente

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dfan wrote:
Ah yes, the "second-line chomp."


So it has a name. That's interesting, so the thing to look out for is having two stones along the second line?
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Offline mongus
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #148 Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:10 pm 
Dies with sente

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I think this is another option for black. Is this what you mean by the throw in?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O . . . |
$$ . X . X O . . . . |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 5 |
$$ . . . . X X X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #149 Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:11 pm 
Gosei

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mongus wrote:
dfan wrote:
Ah yes, the "second-line chomp."

So it has a name.

Oh, it's just the name I give it. I don't think it has a real name.

Quote:
That's interesting, so the thing to look out for is having two stones along the second line?

When Black cuts, his stone will have two liberties, and White will go first. So the thing to look for is for the White stones being cut to have only one liberty (after being cut). All of these three moves result in a successful capture:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . O . . . . .
$$ . X O O 1 . |
$$ . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . X . |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . O . . . . .
$$ . X O O 1 . |
$$ . . X X O . |
$$ . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . X X |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . O . . . . .
$$ . X O O 1 . |
$$ . . X X O . |
$$ . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]


What I meant about throw-ins is that this doesn't work:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White has two liberties
$$ . O . . . . .
$$ . X O O 4 . |
$$ . . X X O . |
$$ . . . X O . |
$$ . . . X O 3 |
$$ . . . . X 1 |
$$ . . . . X 2 |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]

but this does:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w5: at :w2:
$$ . O . . . . .
$$ . X O O 6 . |
$$ . . X X O . |
$$ . . . X O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . X 1 |
$$ . . . . X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . |[/go]

Obviously White would not actually play :w5: at :w2: in a real game!

By the way, you should still try to answer Uberdude's question. (I had accidentally told you the answer in a comment I made at the same time as his question, but I have deleted my spoiler.)
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Offline mongus
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #150 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:49 am 
Dies with sente

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Thanks, that throw in is pretty devastating!

dfan wrote:
Oh, it's just the name I give it. I don't think it has a real name.


It's a good name :-)

dfan wrote:
By the way, you should still try to answer Uberdude's question. (I had accidentally told you the answer in a comment I made at the same time as his question, but I have deleted my spoiler.)


I came up with a couple of possibilities above. Are there other options?
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #151 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:13 am 
Gosei

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mongus wrote:
dfan wrote:
By the way, you should still try to answer Uberdude's question. (I had accidentally told you the answer in a comment I made at the same time as his question, but I have deleted my spoiler.)

I came up with a couple of possibilities above. Are there other options?

Oh, so you did! I missed it. I was thinking of this, which is easier to find in a game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O 1 . . |
$$ . X . X O 2 . . . |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But your move works too.
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Offline mongus
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #152 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:22 pm 
Dies with sente

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Couldn't White ensure survival with the following :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O 1 2 . |
$$ . X . X O 3 . . . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Then :


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . 2 X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 . 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



I think that shape is alive?
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #153 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:14 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1596
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Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
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KGS: dfan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O 1 2 . |
$$ . X . X O . 3 . . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Offline Fedya
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #154 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:18 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

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mongus wrote:
Couldn't White ensure survival with the following :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O 1 2 . |
$$ . X . X O 3 . . . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Then :


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . 2 X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 . 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



I think that shape is alive?


Then :


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 2 . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I like Dfan's variation better.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #155 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:26 pm 
Honinbo

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Fedya wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 2 . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I like Dfan's variation better.


Oh, yours looks like fun, though. :D

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #156 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:30 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . 1 . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Just to cross the eyes and dot the teas. What now?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline mongus
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #157 Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:48 am 
Dies with sente

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Ah yes. Thanks. I guess life would only be assured if you were playing against me!



Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . 1 . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Just to cross the eyes and dot the teas. What now?



Hmm...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O 4 |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O 4 |
$$ . . . X X O O 1 . |
$$ . . . . X X X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O . |
$$ . . . X X O O . 1 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Either way, white is dead.


Last edited by mongus on Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #158 Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:06 am 
Gosei

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Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
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KGS: dfan
mongus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O 4 |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Does White have an alternative on move 3?

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O . |
$$ . . . X X O O . 1 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


and now what does White play?
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Offline mongus
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #159 Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:17 am 
Dies with sente

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Ah

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 3 O . |
$$ . . . X X O O . 1 |
$$ . . . . X X X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



White lives.

This post by mongus was liked by: Bill Spight
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: The mistakes I make
Post #160 Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:18 am 
Oza
User avatar

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In Bill's diagram it is Black to play not White. If Black plays tenuki, White lives...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 3 O . |
$$ . . . X X O O . 1 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 O 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O 5 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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