Red, a Go variant

MarkSteere · #1

http://www.marksteeregames.com/Red_rules.pdf

dukedaniel · #2

Wow this is a very interesting variant I would be interested to see how this would affect a 19x19 game. Maybe we could get 2 high level dans to play this kind of match?

MarkSteere · #3

dukedaniel wrote:

Wow this is a very interesting variant

Thanks :)

I changed the name to Redstone. There was already a game called Red.

dukedaniel wrote:

I would be interested to see how this would affect a 19x19 game. Maybe we could get 2 high level dans to play this kind of match?

That'd be cool.

There's a discussion of Redstone in the bgg Go variant forum.

illluck · #4

That discussion at RGG is, imo, comedic gold

Regarding the game itself. My instinct is that it will be incredibly boring. The reason is that it's not possible to kill the first stones even with the use of red stones. So both sides will end up with at least 1 completely alive (even with pass) group. Then it pretty much degenerates into a battle for the most number of alive groups, and then playing with only red stones until one side has to fill in eyes, then there's a choice of using either a red stone or a stone of own colour - one of which will end in opponent having to fill in eyes (though it's possible that opponent will get to decide through the use of 2 or more stones of his own colour), and then repeat this until one side runs out of groups (probably anytime from 400 to 800 moves). I suspect that the key will be in forming shapes in which opponent has no choice to decide who has to fill eyes, but not sure - it feels too random and tedious to be fun imo.

Edit: missed restrictions on using red stones if and only if it captures. Then it still feels quite random and even more tedious because the location of red stones, the shape and the size (mostly for even/odd) of the final stones which are pretty much impossible to anticipate may determine the result of the game, and if not, then those attributes of each of the groups remaining on the board will determine the winner.

MarkSteere · #5

illluck wrote:

Edit: missed restrictions on using red stones [but it's still random, tedious and bad.]

You're determined not to like it

topazg · #6

I think the game would become very tedious on a 19x19 board. Simply because if everyone had, for example, 4 living groups, it would then be a case of slowly filling in your own liberties until your opponent plays a red stone, when the board suddenly opens up for a while, and then repeats. The number of repeats would not be small, and the winner would be the person who carefully judged move order to make sure they weren't making the last move. There could easily be some very obscure zugzwang positions forming.

Ok illluck (or anyone else if they want to), let's play an 11x11 board, not so small that groups are hard to form, but not so big as to take too long:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . . B , . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . . . , . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

I guess we should use red unfilled circles or something for the red stones.

topazg · #7

MarkSteere wrote:

illluck wrote:

Edit: missed restrictions on using red stones [but it's still random, tedious and bad.]

You're determined not to like it

I actually think his comments hit the nail on the head. Not because I'm inclined to dislike it either (I play lots of abstract board games, and always enjoy finding new ones), but we're both used to the way captured stones impact the board as a whole.

I'd be rather surprised if the board didn't end up rather covered in red stones, too...

MarkSteere · #8

topazg wrote:

I'd be rather surprised if the board didn't end up rather covered in red stones, too...

If played to the bitter end, yes.

MarkSteere · #9

topazg wrote:

let's play an 11x11 board

Redstone uses the pie rule, so the first placement should be selected for equitability.

jts · **#10**

I recommend everyone read the bgg thread, it will brighten your day.

illluck · **#11**

Let's see how this goes. I anticipate a 50% chance of winning after over 300 moves :p

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . . X , . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

hyperpape · **#12**

If bgg hasn't whetted your appetite, there's more: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB ... ;start=120. Almost 900 posts, probably over a third by Mark (he shows up around page 10).

MarkSteere · **#13**

hyperpape wrote:

[Mark] shows up around page 10.

Cat's out of the bag. Might as well upload a photo....

topazg · **#14**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . X , . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

What on Earth do I do on an 11x11 board? Does it even matter on a game I can't predict sequential outcomes for?

illluck · **#15**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X , . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

I guess I just make as many groups with as many 1 space eyes as possible and also as many groups as possible?

topazg · **#16**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X , . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Hey you, stop this sansan nonsense!

illluck · **#17**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

What? Sansan? Me?

Edited to correct board size (for some reason it became 12 by 11). Feel free to adjust your last few moves if you got confused by the size.

topazg · **#18**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Weird, no idea how that happened. Yeah, I'm not sure I can strategically play the things anyway, so we may as well

illluck · **#19**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

I have no idea how this will end given that red stones remove ko.

topazg · **#20**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ ------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X O 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------[/go]

Let's do something a bit crude

Red, a Go variant

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