It is currently Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:10 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Obscuring Precalculated Plays
Post #41 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:44 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1581
Location: Hong Kong
Liked others: 54
Was liked: 544
GD Posts: 1292
As per the latest New in Go article brought to us by GOGOD, pros do have blind spots to variations that become so obvious once they have been shown. I think it's a very relevant article for this thread.
http://www.gogod.co.uk/NewInGo/NewInGo.htm
86. Historic new move - joseki for birds

So in my opinion, the edge is normally unleashed as a precalculated new variation rather than obscuring something which is already known. It is true that the board is open and that professionals read deeply, but no one has the time to truely study every joseki ever discovered in great depth to the extent of discovering new weaknesses which might render certain joseki obsolete. As we all know joseki are not engraved in stone but may change over time as new ideas are discovered.

As to the question of how pros might use the fruits of their studies and still keep it hidden, I would think they could play private games on the internet with other high rankers to battle test their new ideas before unleashing them in tournament play where it counts towards their pocketbooks.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Obscuring Precalculated Plays
Post #42 Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:08 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 477
Liked others: 192
Was liked: 357
Rank: 5d
This isn't about surprising the opponent with newly researched moves in the opening (which does happen), but Ma Xiaochun's 36 Stratagems Applied to Go might be the kind of thing you're thinking about. Here's a quick review/explanation.

Ma has a reputation for tricking other pros. The first example game is for the stratagem of 'Crossing the Sea by Treachery'. Ma analyzes a corner position, showing why white thinks it's alive and why, actually, there's a way to make ko that white's overlooked. He also points out that if black can play a particular move on the outside in sente, the ko will be erased and black will be able to kill cleanly (without ko). The group is big enough to decide the game.

Rather than start the ko or play that forcing move right away, which would "draw white's attention to the problem", Ma shows how black can setup a double attack which will allow black to play the crucial corner threatening move in sente, as part of the normal flow of fighting.

By concealing the double threat within the flow of fighting, black's able to kill the corner and win the game. But at the point when black unleashes the double threat, even if white's now realized what's going on (which he probably has), it's too late to do anything about it. At that point, black threatens to kill one group or the other. A 41 move sequence is given for the main diagram of how black played. Black plays the double threat on move 21 of the sequence and (after the fighting on the edge settles down) the killing move on move 33.

It's a really good book (one of the more underrated ones in English), but the level is very high and it's usually better to play the variations out on the board to follow them. It's such a pity that the publisher is basically impossible to work with, otherwise we'd stock this book at Go Game Guru.

I bought the book as a kyu player and enjoyed it a lot, but I didn't really study it carefully until years later. Whenever I have time to study it, it's very hard going, but I also start winning a lot more games against strong opponents.

Some players I know don't like this book because they think Ma's ideas are just tricks and they're more interested in the 'Zen' approach to Go. The original 36 Stratagems was a military text (like the Art of War) and focusses only on the yin (i.e. the dark side) of the yin yang. In my opinion, the examples shown in the book are just high level examples of creating miai. They teach you new and interesting strategies and techniques (that could go by other names, but the purpose of the book is to use the 36 Stratagems).

For me this book really emphasized the connection between life and death, tactics and whole board strategy, and showed how deep Go strategy can be. It's one of the main reasons why I always tell people that becoming strong at life and death is essential for coming up with genuinely good strategies during a game.

_________________
David

Go Game Guru: Learn Go | How to Get Better at Go | Go Game Shop | Go Boards | Baduk TV


This post by gogameguru was liked by 2 people: Alguien, illluck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Obscuring Precalculated Plays
Post #43 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:51 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 477
Liked others: 192
Was liked: 357
Rank: 5d
I didn't want to reproduce the commentary from the book when I wrote this the other day and I couldn't find an accurate copy of the game record. But since it's such an awesome example of strategy, it was still on my mind and I went and found one (this game is also in GoGoD, but the move order was all messed up in critical places, and the flow didn't make sense. :()

Here's the game. There's also some light commentary in the diagrams below.



The moment of interest is when white plays :w64:. Black embarks on a long road with :b65:, all the while secretly eyeing the lower right corner. Black :b85: is the key move and :b97: is the coup de grâce.

After that, black just has to prove that his group's alive :).


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W After white :w1:, black comes up with a far sighted plan to kill the lower right corner.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Attacking the lower right corner directly would lead to ko.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O X X X O O O 3 |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O 4 |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . O X 8 9 0 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 6 O . 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 1 . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B (continuing) this ko is heavy and white has a lot of ko threats, so black doesn't feel this is promising way to play.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O X X X O O O X |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O a X O . O O |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . O X 2 X W O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c b X O O 1 O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black's plan starts very indirectly with :b1: and so on. Black's real aim is to turn 'a' into a double threat.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . 7 . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . 3 . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . 8 . 2 . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . 1 . . . . O X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O 9 . . . . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Success! :clap:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . X . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . O . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O . . O X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . O . O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O O . O O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O X X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . 1 . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

_________________
David

Go Game Guru: Learn Go | How to Get Better at Go | Go Game Shop | Go Boards | Baduk TV


This post by gogameguru was liked by: Alguien
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Obscuring Precalculated Plays
Post #44 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:50 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 946
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 41
Rank: IGS 5kyu
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
gogameguru wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W After white :w1:, black comes up with a far sighted plan to kill the lower right corner.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



My question is would the bottom right corner sequence make sense for an amateur to play or study, if they couldn't read out the life and death sequences and variations? An alternate explanation for white's ignoring the ko in the corner would be that living in gote would be too expensive, and a ko threat would sufficiently damaging to black in compensation.

The Ma book is on my wish list along with Korean style fuseki dictionary and Cho U's tsumego.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Obscuring Precalculated Plays
Post #45 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:49 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 477
Liked others: 192
Was liked: 357
Rank: 5d
SmoothOper wrote:
My question is would the bottom right corner sequence make sense for an amateur to play or study, if they couldn't read out the life and death sequences and variations? An alternate explanation for white's ignoring the ko in the corner would be that living in gote would be too expensive, and a ko threat would sufficiently damaging to black in compensation. The Ma book is on my wish list along with Korean style fuseki dictionary and Cho U's tsumego.
Ma's book is quite hard going, but if you have the patience and the interest, I think it's worth it.

Rather than the sequence itself, it's the greater strategy that you want to take note of. If you can't read out the sequence in the corner, then you'd have less information than Ma in this specific position, so you wouldn't be able to use this strategy here. In your own games though, similar situations will arise where you can read them out. That's where this example may come to mind and you could consider this sort of approach as one possible strategy you might choose in the middle game.

Rather than a just add water trick play, this is a more generally applicable plan that requires you to have a certain amount of understanding of what's going on on the board.

There's plenty to glean from this book in terms of local tactics and technique, but the main focus is on strategy. As I said earlier, this example shows clearly the value of becoming strong at reading and life and death. When you understand more about what's going on (in precise detail) you have more options to choose from.

Strategy and tactics are two sides of the same coin. They can't really be separated. But strategy is king.

_________________
David

Go Game Guru: Learn Go | How to Get Better at Go | Go Game Shop | Go Boards | Baduk TV

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Obscuring Precalculated Plays
Post #46 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:01 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Echoing David's comments, Ma's book has many great examples of flexibility and creativity in Go. The linkage to the stragems is sometimes rather tenuous but that doesn't really matter. I too remember that chapter and applied the strategy in one of my games: r1 is sente to kill the group on the right, but if I play it too early it is obvious what is going on so I needed to find a way to play it naturally in an attack on the group on the lower side.


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Obscuring Precalculated Plays
Post #47 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:14 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 946
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 41
Rank: IGS 5kyu
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
Uberdude wrote:
The linkage to the stragems is sometimes rather tenuous but that doesn't really matter.


Maybe the linkage is there, but the translation is weird. I know in Chinese there aren't prepositions, so "Crossing the sea with treachery", could just as easily be "Crossing the sea of treachery", or "Crossing the treacherous sea.", which makes sense in this example.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Obscuring Precalculated Plays
Post #48 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:16 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1223
Liked others: 738
Was liked: 239
Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
SmoothOper wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
The linkage to the stragems is sometimes rather tenuous but that doesn't really matter.


Maybe the linkage is there, but the translation is weird. I know in Chinese there aren't prepositions, so "Crossing the sea with treachery", could just as easily be "Crossing the sea of treachery", or "Crossing the treacherous sea.", which makes sense in this example.


No.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group