@ Ellyster - thanks for the clarification.

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Patience, grasshopper.

Someone mentioned that the majority of games in MGS are "lifted from GoGoD".

In fact, MGS contains hundreds of thousands of Ama games and the number of pro games that were unique to GoGoD alone were at most 3000 games, mainly very old ones that I may even have deleted.

Hence, a negligeable percentage of games that come with MGS are unique for GoGoD. I used very many game databases from sources all over the world. Private collections, Chinese pros that sent me many records, every imaginable source was used. Since Go records are not copyrightable, this was fully legal.

[admin] Several sentences removed for being in violation of the TOS -JB [/admin]

I have just been informed by the censor of this forum that I am not allowed to explain what the real reason for the boycot of my software was.

Did you get sued?

[admin]

For some reason, most threads about moyoGo seem to end badly, with off topic references to mental illness, lawsuits, and WWII. I ask all posters to stick to the topic, and in particular to avoid those three tempting off topic subjects.

Thanks
JB

[/admin]

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

People ought to have the right to make an educated choice. Since you have to pay for this software, you support the individual behind it. And some individuals (and companys) I personaly don't like to support because I know what they will support with my money then.

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I did not get sued. I am not allowed to name names by the moderator, but I can tell you it has nothing to do with my opinion on WW2 history.

I published my controversial opinion on WW2 history two years after I had completely given up on the software.

The real reason was an attempt by two competitors to completely ostracize me from the Computer Go world, because I was a threat to their bottom line. That's all there was to it. I was falsely accused of unethical things, and "you" (Go players) bought it hook, line and sinker.

No hard feelings though! I learnt tremendously much from the whole episode, in terms of how neurotypical humans think (As I said, I have Aspergers), also some programming techniques I now use to my advantage, business sense etc. So I guess you can say that you all helped me to achieve success after all, for which I am truly grateful.

But note the post following your ruling.

The problem, Joaz, is that to declare that these things are off topic (irrelevant) to decisions about MoyoGo is in fact to have taken a side in the matter in dispute. I agree with you that this forum is not the place to discuss these things but we mustn't go so far as to pretend that there aren't things "off topic" influencing whether people will accept or reject MoyoGo unrelated to the merits of the software.

We can acknowledge that without going into any details about the elephant in the corner of the room, even whether it is an elephant or a rhinoceros. Part of the dispute is that some people feel whatever big critter is over in that corner of the room doesn't affect the use of the room and some people feel that it does.

In fact, Joaz, in listing specific things to be off topic you have gone farther in describing what that big critter might be than I have. I'd have left it up to the curious to research back forum discussions to find out for themselves. But if you were really meaning to say that we can discuss the pros and cons of MoyoGo without taking these off topic things into account, then you have taken a side.

They say time heals all wounds and for me, the severe wounds have healed because I became very successful in what I do now. Even if MGS would have been a resounding success worldwide I would never have had so much financial freedom as I have today. So I am not bitter any more. One could argue that it had been a mistake to focus on Go software.

What remains is the lessons one can take away from the episode. It is an interesting thing that happened to me. I never imagined that what happened, would ever happen. I simply was totally naive. I think like a computer, that's why I am a good programmer I guess. Everything has to be "logical" with me. To me, it was logical and ethical what I did.

The lessons I learnt from you were very valuable. I learned how neurotypical people think. I had no idea. If you understand the neurotypical mind, you can predict their thoughts, given certain inputs. And you can also predict the outputs. So if I desire a certain output, given the "formula" that is the neurotypical mind, I can calculate what inputs I need to present.

Thinking like an autist, an Asperger, wasted only four years of my efforts but I have increasingly able to focus my efforts on the neurotypical mind, with great success.

I learnt that neurotypicals are not interested in truths. Truths interfere too much with their beliefs. Neurotypicals are emotional beings, seeking constant reinforcement of their deeply held beliefs such as their value systems. Logic and rational arguments play an insignificant role for them.

It took me years of practical study, researching and testing the neurotypical mind, in order for me to form even a vague concept of how it operates. I had to do that, otherwise I knew I was doomed in society. I can recommend the book "A Field Guide to Earthlings: An autistic/Asperger view of neurotypical behavior" for those who struggle with the same problem. Of course it is impossible to truly understand neurotypicals for someone with Asperger's ("neurotypicals is not a derogatory term, it means "people with a normal brain", vs. people on the autistic spectrum).

Incidentally, if you take the side of Aaron Swartz, you will take my side as well. I comitted the same "crime" - actually a much lesser one, not even a crime, legally speaking.

Frank, not about committing a crime (in the legal sense).

In the jurisdiction where I live you can say anything as far as criminal law is concerned.

So.....? Your logic leads you to expect that there would be a 1:1 correlation between people who break some criminal law and people whom I consider enemy and 1:1 between people who obey all criminal laws and people I consider friends?

Wrong conclusion. I have perfectly good (and even logical) reasons to consider some law breakers my friends and some who obey every law my enemies.

I was not referring you you, Mike.
I was referring to extracting game records from various sources.

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Yes, "we" do. Call it your side.

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I got a copy of Moyo Go Studio while Frank was offering it for free. My feeling at the time was that if I used my own databases, then the question of whether the included game records are copyrightable or not would be a moot point.

I liked the software quite a bit, though I did have some reservations. It was usually quite fast, but if I left it open for a while and came back to it later, it would become very slow. Usually, when I notice something like this, I write an email to the developer, or ask questions on a support forum. In this case however, Frank had already stated that he no longer intended on working on it, and had also expressed some pretty harsh opinions of go players in general, so didn't bother.

Another issue for me was that the interface was extremely customizable which on the one hand I loved - particularly in contrast to the inflexibility of Smart Go - but on the other hand, it led to a constant resizing and shifting of windows. I found this to be a serious detraction to my concentration.

My decision to uninstall Moyo Go Studio from my computer however, had nothing to do with the software and everything to do with discussions of WW2, mental illness and and lawsuits. Given the history of such discussions, it's easy to see why an admin would want to prohibit them, as they've invariably led to personal attacks in various directions. Clearly, quite a few bridges have been burnt, and with fires still smouldering, it's difficult for anyone to consider building new ones. While I understand the desire to nip any new flamewars in the bud as opposed to having to clean up afterwards, I have to disagree with his assertion that the controversial subjects are irrelevant to the topic. Frank's disputes with the go community, his volatility and indeed his take on the world, all influence our decision to use his software or not.

Frank's decision to resume selling Moyo Go Studio and even apparently spending time thinking about how it could be further developed, as well as his renewed participation here on the forum indicate to me an interest in improving his relationship to the go community. I was glad to read that he no longer feels bitter. Whether this is a step towards reconciliation with the community as a whole and removing the objections to his software is another question. His assertions about neurotypicals (most of us) don't make me particularly optimistic. While it may have a certain amount of validity that neurotypicals place their own beliefs above objective truths, it's not clear to me that what seems logical to a ...neuroatypical?... is necessarily true.

So, here I am talking about mental illness and how it might affect someone. While I really don't want to fan flames, I can't help but think that if I better understood what has driven Frank into these disputes and whether his studies of neurotypicals have made him less abrasive might affect whether I would choose to reinstall the software or not. To me, it's relevant

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Patience, grasshopper.

@Daal: Me selling Moyo Go Studio has nothing to do with any kind of repairing relations with Go players.

I did it for several other reasons. One was the pirating of the software by a young German member of the German Pirate party. His argument was "It's not for sale anymore so I can do what I want". I really did not like that. Perhaps it has something to do with the thousands of hours I worked on it, while all the time thinking "today could be my last day on Earth, this hour I could die of the symptoms I am having". As I mentioned before, I was very, very ill. I sometimes mentioned my extreme illness on rec.games.go and GoDiscussions.com but I was called a liar, so I stopped mentioning it.

Just FYI, for several years, I was unable to hold my pee due to inflammation of the nerves in my spinal cord. I had to sleep in a pee-soaked matress for years, since I was unemployed w/o benefits, since the doctor said there was nothing wrong with me. I also had waking-apnea, that is that your breathing completely and fully stops while you're doing nothing special (I was programming Moyo Go). After two minutes, a gasping reflex sets in, then you will force yourself to breathe for a few minutes, then you relax, then it starts again. At night, you hardly sleep due to the same symptom. A few more things, such as involuntary (well, they're always involuntary) spams of the legs and very nasty neurological symptoms that are called neurally mediated vasospasms or the coronary vessels, that caused such extreme tachycardia that often I wondered how it was possible that a body could not break down, eventually. 175 bpm seems not healthy, in complete rest.

These health problems, while I was dedicating my precious rest of my life to the software, made me irritated with the adversity I received from the Go world. So that explains my irritation. On top of that, that irritation was strongly reinforced by what is commonly called "Lyme rage". Apart from that, I do not suffer fools gladly, so imagine the mayhem on rec.games.go, where - how shall I get this past the censor - not everyone is the politest.

To conclude: I have not the slightest interest in who buys or buys not my software. This is because I have relinquished my emotional bond with it, and have other, pressing things to tend to, such as saving my life.

Very good questions*, IMHO, because it is only with curiosity that we can conquer xenophobia and the resulting hate which both are ruling the planet.

So, for me it’s not about deciding whether I’d install some software or not (As a Mac user I’m on an even further planet anyway ).

To me it’s more about those bridges, and how we could build them, build bridges, build whole nets of bridges over all those communication gaps. I observe miscommunication daily. And between people who all think of themselves as “normal”. Yet they go on yelling at each other and what have you.

I’d like to understand more about “neuro-atypicals”.

So, Frank, is there any book you’d recommend to me about Asperger’s or the like? Given that I’d like to understand not only you but “people like you”, what should I read? (And I’ll also read that other book you recommended, thank you, b/c trying to view the world through your eyes may also help me understand.)

And BTW, I’m probably also not totally “typical” (if something like that does at all exist) since I’ve been late-diagnosed with ADD (at age of 42!) which has made me understand a lot of the problems in my childhood, youth, and my whole life.

Greetings, Tom


<edit>

* OK, so I did not quote a single question nevermind, you’ll grok it nevertheless.

</edit>

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“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

You could read some of the postings of wrongplanet.net, the ones that complain about the neurotypical world.

Well, I did also mention the fact that you are posting here, and that you still think - even if only theoretically about ways that Moyo Go Studio could be made even better.

I guess my point is that whether anyone - including yourself - likes it or not, for better or worse, you are part of the go community. Why not for better?

Pardon my metaphor, but my impression is that for you, some water has gone under the ... remains of the burnt bridges, and luckily, you seem to have found your footing elsewhere. As you say, you have relinquished your emotional bond with your software, and at the present, you give the impression that it is perfectly possible to have a reasonable conversation with you.

I won't make any bones about it, in the past, you've certainly expressed views which, if you still hold them, would prevent me from inviting you into my home. This is however also the case with a wide variety of people whose work I nonetheless value and respect. Political views and the like are in my mind no reason to avoid civil conversations with anyone, but you would be quite right to assume that I have no interest in debating the truth of some of my beliefs.

If there's one thing I know about neurotypicals, is that they all hate being thrown into one pot. (How's that for a conundrum? ) When you say for example that we are not interested in truths and only in views supporting our own beliefs, our collective hair bristles. Likewise, any assertions about "go players," will be met in our minds with the legitimate question: "what in the world does he know about me?"

I realize that you've had some awful experiences with quite a few go players and visa versa, and while I wouldn't pin any high hopes on that changing, it does seem that a change could only be for the better.

I'd like to note that in this thread, nobody has questioned your statements about your health, and to my knowledge, it hasn't happened on this forum either.

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Patience, grasshopper.

Aspies are extremely different in the way they think and process information than neurotypicals. To us, you are "aliens" and to you, we are also "aliens". You are so strange to us, that a very large percentage of us prefers suicide over living with you. We don't understand your world and we can not live in it, neither can we transform it to our liking because you are in the great majority.

I for example do not understand why someone would not want to invite someone into his house who has a different opinion on a historic event. It seems neurotypicals emotionalize everything, including numbers and data. Yes I do generalize. Generalization is the most fundamental and most important form of intelligence. All mammals and even birds are able to do it, to their great advantage.

I was overcome with great joy when I, after very much research concluded that I disagreed with the historical event under dispute. It is hard to explain without this getting censored (everything I post has to be approved first), so please try to understand how someone with great compassion for the victims and anger towards perpetrators feels when he discovers an alternate version of events. So much effort expended to discover the truth, and such a joyous conclusion. How can you not be but glad that someone has done all the work so that he can explain you his findings. Instead, the neurotypical mind considers the alternative view a personal attack on deeply held emotional beliefs. The person who attacks the belief system is perceived as a threat.

I wish to end the talk on my controversial opinions on WW2, since they have nothing to do with my Go software. As I explained before, the boycots were not due to that, and I announced that I had abandoned my Go software years before that, for different reasons, namely that of a controversial Copyright dispute by various competitors.

I also do not want to discuss that topic anymore, since I have grown tired of it. It is clear that my ethics system is very different from the ethics system of most of you. I consider the neurotypical ethics system bordering on psychopathy, and I assume you (pl.) have a similar opinion on mine, esp. seen the vehemence of the attacks on me, which were relentless and came from all directions and in many forms for many years. Some people spent a lot of time and effort in shutting my software down.

I have never considered myself part of any Go community. I hardly know the rules, played perhaps a dozen games in my life. I was never accepted by you, I was fiercely rejected as some kind of detrimental element that needed to be removed. I consider Go to be just a game like any other, and not worthy of my time. Go software was another issue entirely. I had hoped to be accepted for my novel approach, but Go players accepted the story of two competing companies and I, because I ventilated many opinion people did not like, I made many enemies.

Neurotypicals find it hard to separate for example a dislike for an opinion of person X with a dislike of person X itself, and, as a consequence, a dislike for product Y of person X. Example: Let's assume I say I'm a "Holocaust denier". Then I'm not making any friends. People will even go out of their way to boycot good Go software. I think that's so strange that I sometimes think this world is not for me (meaning, suicide is the only solution).

End of story. I don't want to talk about it anymore, in fact this should be my last posting on this forum until I feel the need to correct another inaccuracy posted here.