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 Post subject: Re: jts takes notes
Post #21 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:15 pm 
Oza
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ez4u wrote:
jts wrote:
...

In a remarkable stroke of luck, I went to a local cafe to log on to KGS and stumbled over a local go club. I didn't get to play anyone that day because everyone was already playing, but I'll be back on Thursday.

Congratulations! :clap: :tmbup:

Thank you! Three of us met in a bar tonight and I played both of them. Not as impressive as the go players you drink with, but it will do quite nicely for now.

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Post #22 Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:16 am 
Oza
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So as you might guess from the journal, progress has been slowish. I did finish taking notes on ky, but typing them up for the perusal of my adoring public is a low priority. I play 2-5 games a week, face to face, which is certainly more go than I was playing before I moved, but somehow it feels like less because I'm never on kgs. The no-internet project worked brilliantly for a while, but ultimately failed; my roommate needed it to check on patients when she's on call. If you notice me making more silly posts on here, that's because I'm spending less of my down time running and replaying pro games.

I currently have eight games that I can replay some part of:

A gl/cch game that illuck translated: I know this one down to the bitter end. At a good point I think I'm ready to transition to intensively studying it. (That was my plan to keep myself occupied until the rescuers came, but unfortunately Sandy was a bit of a let down and now i dont know what to do with my two cases of pellegrino, either.) I know the moves, but I'd doubt I see whats on the board.

Two Sakata games that bill posted for shape examples; I know about 80 to 120 moves of these. (with more of the longer one coming back when I replay it frequently.) That means I'm nearly done with one of them.

The killing game; I know it through the big fight. The sequence is deceptively simple; to retain it I really needed to come to an understanding of what the fight was about. Exhausting.

The first four shusaku castle games; I know the first hundred or so moves of the first two, and the fuseki of the second two. I've been adding these ones at a faster clip than the first four games. Partly because I've been trying to keep myself to a schedule which I havent had time for, partly because I recognize in principal that if I'm mostly just memorizing moves, the fuseki is most salutary. (In practice, I'm far too impulsive to stop at the fuseki. I can't be satisfied with knowing one move without having some sense of the local follow-up.)

The long term plan is to learn the Shusaku castle games, then a 9x9 or five, then either the sanjubango with Ota or perhaps something totally different. This will undoubtedly take a very long time, since I have looked at eight games in four months, studied none of them, and have been getting rather busy in the last month.

Other go-related activities and aspirations: I keep thinking that some day I'll have a day when I can just play a bunch of games on kgs, but sadly I've been too busy. (Partly this is because I recognize that games are probably far more important, and fun, than any other aspect of go. Partly because I tend to forget my games before I can make an sgf, so it's hard to ask for reviews. Partly because I miss the tension of the clock.) I have occasionally set up tsumego from cho chikun advanced set on the board, but I haven't gotten back into serious tsumego-cranking - largely because I no longer spend any time in public transit or on planes. I occasionally look at other go literature, but I can't help thinking that at this point tsumego would mean more to me than (literary) reading.

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Post #23 Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:14 am 
Oza

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I think I have the same problem with Davies' L&D book that you describe in your earlier posts. In fact, I learned how to solve L&D problems better from reading his Tesuji book than from his L&D book.

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Post #24 Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:06 am 
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Hey jts, can you post the sgf of that game we were looking at on kaya? I had a flash of insight into my mediocre attempt at explaining that ko, but I don't remember the whole game.

Edit: Fortunately, I remembered enough of and about the game to find it easily on gokifu.com.



The question being about how this ko resolved:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm143
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | 7 . 1 . . . O O X . X X . O O X X X . |
$$ | 6 3 2 O . . O X X X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . O X . X O O . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X O X O X . O . O X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . X O X X X . O X O O . |
$$ | . X O . O . X . X O . . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . X O , . . . . X O X O X X . , O X X |
$$ | . X X O . X . O O X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . O . . X O X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X X O X O . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X O X . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White is thick to the right, so I guess black didn't want a risky fight by trying to play normally and instead played the usual ko.

Later, white plays the following "threat" and black seemingly wins the ko in sente.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm166
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X . . O O X . X X O O O X X X . |
$$ | O X O O 2 . O X X X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | O O . . . . O X . X O O . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . X O X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . X O X . O . O X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . X . X X X . O X O O . |
$$ | . X O . O . X . X . X . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . X O , . . . . X , X O X X . , O X X |
$$ | . X X O . X . O O X X O O . . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . O . . X O X X O X 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X X O . O . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X O X . O O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think the key point is more or less what I said at the time, that black's central threat caused an exchange rather than a continuation of the ko fight.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm157
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | X O X X . . O O X . X X . O O X X X . |
$$ | O . O O . . O X X X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | O O . . . . O X . X O O . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X O X O X . O . O X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . X O X X X . O X O O . |
$$ | . X O . O . X . X O . . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . X O , . . . . X O X O X X . , O X X |
$$ | . X X O . X . O O X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . O . . X O X X O 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O O X X O C O . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X O X . O 2 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

With this threat, they have created a volatile, unsettled position. Locally speaking, black now owes starting the ko at 'a'. His threat was a gote, so to speak. But if he continues locally he won't have time to fight top left.

I would view white's threats not so much fighting the ko (which was black's option to create), as accepting this exchange. Coming back to 166.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm166
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ | X . X B 6 . O O X . X X O O O X X X . |
$$ | O X O O 2 . O X X X X O O O X X O . . |
$$ | W O 5 4 3 . O X . X O O . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . X O X . X O X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . X O X . O . O X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . X . X X X . O X O O . |
$$ | . X O . O . X . X . X . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . X O , . . . . X , B O X X . , O X X |
$$ | . X X O . X . O O X X W O . . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . O . . X O X X O X 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O O . O O O X X O . O . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X O X . O O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White removes the massive ko fight for life in the centre, living with points there in gote.
In exchange, black also lives (in sente) top left letting him come back to cover his weakness bottom left.
Also viewing it as an exchange from white's perspective rather than a ko proper, all of white's threats are marked. He never played a bad ko threat.

Edit: Maybe one should say top left and centre were miai.

Attachment:
z97-gokifu-20120620-Choi_Cheolhan-Gu_Li.sgf [1.91 KiB]
Downloaded 1168 times


Edit 3, hidden bonus question edition:
:b173: raises the side question: Doesn't it suck that white didn't get to play :b173: as a ko threat at least?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm142 Randomly saying white tries throwing it in as sente back at 142.
$$ | . . . O . . O X X
$$ | . . . . . . O X .
$$ | . . . . . . X O X
$$ | . . . . . . O O X
$$ | . O . . . . . . X
$$ | 3 X O . O . X . X
$$ | . X O , . . . . X
$$ | . X X O . X . O O
$$ | . X O O . . . . .
$$ | b . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . O
$$ | . X . . O . . X O
$$ | a 1 O O . O O O X
$$ | . . X X . X X O X
$$ | . . . . . . X X O
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------[/go]

It does seem to kill locally despite 'a' and 'b' good moves for black, but at least a bit messily. It's interesting to read.

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 Post subject: Re: jts takes notes
Post #25 Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:58 am 
Oza
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Okay, this post is just a scratchpad to keep track of a few posts where I took the time to explain some beginner issues. It's getting surprisingly hard to remember where they are!

Size of moves n stuff
viewtopic.php?p=73366#p73366

Fuseki - miai
viewtopic.php?p=102626#p102626

Fuseki - long, w diagrams n stuff
viewtopic.php?p=101488#p101488

What counting is
viewtopic.php?p=108735#p108735

Memorization vs familiarity with L&d
viewtopic.php?p=109356#p109356

Historical Connection between territory and area scoring
viewtopic.php?p=95274#p95274

More on area/territory being the same
viewtopic.php?p=75814#p75814

What counts as territory?
viewtopic.php?p=91343#p91343

What's an invasion / what counts as territory?
viewtopic.php?p=79294#p79294

When connecting is/isn't important
viewtopic.php?p=69001#p69001

List of things beginners can ask themselves
viewtopic.php?p=78815#p78815

Okay, that was actually the one I was looking for, this should be good for now.


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Post #26 Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:16 pm 
Oza
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I haven't had a real problem playing out my games during an immediate review in over a year, so I always assume that it won't be a problem to record them and start keeping records of my games (especially important now that 90%+ of my games are face-to-face). But when I really want to ask for advice here or on KGS, I'm always chagrined to find that I can't actually remember the most important sequences.

So today I thought I would try recording a game that I had just reviewed extensively, just to get in practice, but lo and behold, 30 minutes later I couldn't remember it. I continued to try to hack away at it after dinner, but I'm giving up. I couldn't tell you where W found a ko threat to save my life.



Edit: okay, posting it revealed the problem - I had W play a ko threat (112) without taking the ko first.


Attachments:
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Post #27 Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:48 pm 
Oza
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It always takes me a half an hour or so to figure out how to fix CGoban after I try logging in to KGS on a guest network by mistake; hopefully I'll remember that I've posted it in my journal.

Code:
javaws -updateVersions -Xclearcache

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Post #28 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:53 pm 
Oza
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It has been nearly two months since my last update - I suppose I should include some information on my Go activities. I have played, oh, I would guess somewhere between 8-20 games. I was beaten soundly by a Korean 7d on the internet - during the fuseki. I re-read "In the Beginning" (funny how many of the reference positions are recognizable fuseki/joseki) and also "38 Basic Joseki". (I must admit that 38 Basic Joseki is not as bad as I had thought from the first two times I tried to read it. However, it isn't as accessible to multiple levels as the other books. You really need to be familiar with the joseki already, and then use "38" to systematize what you know. I've heard that Go players were much more obsessed with joseki thirty years ago; perhaps this is an artifact of that.) I taught one little girl to play using stone counting. (I even discovered a great way to teach the Ko rule - capture/recapture the ko until your student starts giggling.) I haven't been doing problems or playing through pro games.

***
Anyway, I'm adding an entry to make a record of two notes for later reference:

"Der Mensch soll mit der Schoenheit nur spielen, und er soll nur mit der Schoenheit spielen."

Style dichotomies that people sometimes conflate: high variance versus soba go, influence versus points, fighting versus peaceful, crazy versus solid, thin versus thick.

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Post #29 Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:54 pm 
Oza
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What a silly journal.

The original premise of this journal has been more or less abandoned. I never typed up my notes on Kageyama from a year ago, and I didn't bother to make notes when I reread a few go books earlier this year.

Overall, a big part of the original motivation for taking notes on books I had already read was that I felt I wasn't applying the fascinating things I had read about in my games, and figured that I had not read the books carefully enough or retained/digested what I had learned. In retrospect that seems off-base. I wasn't applying what I had read correctly because I couldn't read very well, couldn't count at all, and couldn't come up with an intelligent plan to save my life.

(I still can't read or count, but my stones do live occasionally.)

It's also worth recalling that the reason why I had read so many books that I barely understood was that I was travelling for about four months at around 6k, and only had books I lugged around with me to keep my new obsession alive. It makes perfect sense now that at the end of those three months I had, if anything, declined as a player. I imagine I'll still benefit from re-reading some of them for as long as I'm playing Go. I guess I should say - reading books might help me live up to some potential I've gained by playing oodles of games, but I shouldn't have expected that I would be able to apply the material in those books more faithfully by reading them more carefully.

I've also stopped studying Go games. Actually, I never really started studying the games. The idea was to memorize games and, as I became comfortable with the games, start to analyze them in depth from different angles. In my defense, this was a plan that was adapted for a period in my life when I had just moved, was winging it without internet, and didn't realize there was a club that met twice a week, four blocks from my home. Now that I am back on the grid and getting six games a week at my club, I could claim that I don't want to study games anymore. But really, I do - I didn't stop on purpose. I had selected my next game back in November or so, and it had a very difficult ko that started early and went on into the endgame. I can't say why, exactly, but this threw my plans into disarray; I never finished or discarded that game, I never made progress on the games whose openings I knew, and I never progressed to the analysis of the games I knew by heart.

I do hope I return to playing through professional games, but in the foreseeable future I won't be trying to improve. That is, I don't have any special intention of gaining stones. So the journal will mainly serve as a scratchpad, if it serves as anything at all.

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Post #30 Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:32 am 
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Quote:
I also reread Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go right after I moved, which was fruitful. It's odd how you can keep understanding such a simple book better and better. I took notes which I'll put up here eventually.

Eventually.

Current thoughts
No longer convinced taking notes has meaning. My mistaken impression that I hadn't read/understood the books carefully arose because I had a period where I had more opportunity to read go books than to play, so I read far more than was useful to me at that point (roughly, the first half of 2011, when I was 10k-4k). Revisiting the books later, when my reading was appropriate to the content, I couldn't understand why it seemed like I was reading a completely different book. But the problem wasn't poor retention or carelessness. It was as though I read Baudelaire, loved him, memorized his best poems, and then later took language classes and realized that he was not a nonsense poet but a French poet. (Taking notes on "Opening Theory Made Easy", however, was helpful because it made it easier to memorize the twenty principles, mentally rehearse them during games, and slow down my opening.) -- However, since I just finished typing up the notebook that contained the notes in question, why not?

Introduction - Ladders - Nets - Cutting and Connecting
Introduction – Step One: Play 50-100 games; try to capture/cut enemy stones, try to save/connect friendly stones; keep an open mind, experiment. Step Two: barriers – when you stop improving and you play for fun. (The problem with “playing for fun”: it can cause desperation if you don’t improve over a two-months-to-two-years time frame.) Step Three: If you do not know what to study or how to study it, Kageyama to the rescue.

Ladders: Read ladders until they’re easy. It’s the simplest way to learn to read long sequences. If you really find it difficult, set the ladder up on a board at close distances and move it out a little further each day. If you get a headache, you need to see an optometrist. [My own side-observation: this is the same advice you’ll see in any field… if a basic task is too hard for you, break it down into something even easier that you can manage. If you can’t do ten push-ups do one, if you can’t do one push-up do it on your knees.] Reward one: confidence. “Habit is a frightening thing.” The speed with which your reading improves will reassure you. Reward two: ability to read out complex ladder blocks. (Two side points: if you catch a stone in a ladder, capture as soon as possible, ladder breaker or no ladder breaker. If you play a ladder breaker and your opponent captures, “Irresolution is a vice” – follow through on your threat.)

Nets: If you want to capture stones, hold out two fingers: “Can I catch it in a ladder? Can I catch it in a net?” Nets are always better than ladders (because the ladder breaker is effectively a free move). Tight nets work better than loose nets, even if the bad aji of the loose net seems to lead nowhere at first. Of two tight nets, pick the firmer one (the net that removes the most liberties). – Main lesson: Stronger players cannot afford to neglect elementary skills like capturing stones in ladders and nets. If they do decide they are too good to read, if they muddle along, and try to capture weaker players’ groups on instinct, then when they face stronger players they will come face-to-face with fuzzy reading and recoil in fear. Our brains can sharpen or degenerate, depending on whether we give them good practice.

Cutting and Connecting: Always play fundamentals unless you’re desperate. When you learn go, you start by learning the fundamentals. When you are strong, go back and study the fundamentals again.

1. “The cut is the only move.”
2. Forcing the opponent to connect before attacking the (heavy) shape is not a fundamental move if the cut is good. “Don’t peep where you can cut; cut where you can cut.”
3. Even a moron connects against a peep.
4. At the beginning of the game, don’t even look to see what your opponent’s threat was – connect the ko first, deal with the cut later.
5. Even if you can’t stay connected, block against a cut.
6. Don’t play to preserve territory, play to preserve the connection between your stones.
7. You can’t win just by living and defending territory. When your groups are shred into pieces but your opponent stays connected, you make fewer points per stone.

The Stones Go Walking - The Struggle to Get Ahead - Territory and Spheres of Influence - Life and Death
The Stones Go Walking: “Go is the kind of game in which you are an expert if you can just keep on making ordinary moves.” Amateurs make “The most nonsensical moves imaginable.” Walking seems ordinary, effortless; it has a natural rhythm and momentum. The development of your stones should be like that. On one example of unnatural development: “Play the same move with no regard to the surrounding conditions, and this is what will happen.”

The Struggle to Get Ahead: “Try playing moves you understand, for a change. It will make the game twice as interesting.”

Territory and Spheres of Influence: There are basic fixed percentages of ingredients that go into soup stock; if you try to be clever you get caught out; if you don’t measure at all your soup will taste lousy. Likewise with territory and spheres of influence. If you ignore the fixed percentages of territory and influence and play willfully, your game will be off; if you don’t even know what they are, it will be a disaster. Understanding the difference between a territory and a sphere of influence is a fundamental. – View the board with detachment. The opponent can almost always steal “your” territory, and even make some of his own. You may even voluntarily give up “your” corner, if the thickness will help you attack on the sides. But even as you view your sphere of influence with detachment, you should be prepared to see whatever comes inside it as a target. Constructing large spheres of influence is more efficient than a cramped, territorial style, but not absolutely so. Specifically, you must watch for the balance of power and territory; where your opponent is strong, improbably deep invasion will work out very nicely for him, while you will struggle to attack, or to use the stones gained from attacking. – Using thickness properly when your opponent has emphasized solid territory requires chasing down his weak groups and invasion points, wherever on the board they may be. Essentially, the player with power needs to figure out a sufficiently ambitious plan such that the balance of territory is redressed, and then make sure that the power he has is sufficient to the task.

Life and death: It can be nerve-racking to play with L&D on the line – even if prudent play by both sides should avoid such a drastic outcome. Just don’t play as thought you’re sure you die in any event (with careless risks on all sides) or with desperate caution. Elementary life and death situations are not the ones with the shortest sequences, the most common tesuji, or the like; they are the ones where the fundamentals work. First tackle the eye space (expanding or reducing), then occupy the central point. If you are true to fundamentals, elementary problems unravel into their elements and anxiety and dread are averted. – Eye-space expanding moves have a double character: they bring life and are good endgame. If you obediently reply to every move because it is good endgame, the opponent lives in sente! You must as a rule only respond when the status is still unsettled, making your block sente. – Breaking through an encirclement is far better than having to live… and besides, the terror of dying is more harmful than death itself. You need L&D to have confidence in your invasions.

How to Study Joseki - Good Shape and Bad - Proper and Improper - Tesuji
How to Study Joseki: “Moves that depart from joseki are usually bad and deserve to be punished.” “[Most players] exhaust themselves so much in worrying about josekis that [later in the game] they are in no condition to win.” The difference between the genuine value of joseki themselves and the clear futility of the joseki-centric approach to Go lies in the way amateurs study (“study”) joseki.

1. Learning the moves is not studying joseki.
2. The reason for a move is its meaning. If you can convince yourself you know why a stone is where it is, you have studied something.
3. Joseki moves that work locally may suck globally. Do not, for instance, choose variations that end on an extension (for your opponent) that also functions as a pincer against another corner. Do not start a fighting joseki in an enemy sphere of influence.

Good Shape and Bad: “If you do not feel the same tightening in your chest as when you close your eyes and picture the face of a lover, you do not love good shape enough.”

Proper and Improper: “Knowledge without love is a hollow echo.” “Quiet, beautiful moves” – they allow fierce fighting later and can’t go sour. General point – don’t forget that fundamentals apply to strategy as well as tactics. Thus the contact move bending over a stone is a firm move, but so is the cap; connecting stones is firm, but so is linking groups, etc. “Those who are forever trying to play efficiently place their stones as far apart as they can. This is why they miss so many key points.”

Tesuji: Study tesuji to feel the pulse; develop reading to make sure there is a continuation from the initial move.

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 Post subject: Re: jts takes notes
Post #31 Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:53 pm 
Judan
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Welcome back.

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

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 Post subject: Re: jts takes notes
Post #32 Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:00 am 
Oza
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Welcome back.


Thanks Joaz! I don't know if I was ever really gone; I still get the good bits of L19 at least once a month, although sadly I couldn't tell you much about the current L19 house consensus on global warming or the imminent glory of kaya.gs. But I also don't know if I could really be back - I don't play go much anymore. It's almost as though my pre-go life was cryogenically frozen, waiting for me to come back.

It's hard to say now whether this is a long break or a short break or just a "my go club was on life support" kind of break. Impossible to predict, fruitless to think about. Unless I find a good thread in which to prima-donnishly announce how much I hate go players and L19 (and maybe throw in cross-platform Java clients, for good measure) and publicly promise never to come back.

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