How to get started with joseki?

PeterPeter · #1

I am running into difficulty far too often and too early in the corners, which I feel could be greatly improved by learning some basic joseki that take me safely through the first few moves of enemy engagement commonly encountered.

These are the 2 joseki that I currently know (both start with black on 4-4):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In an attempt to remedy this sad situation, I started looking at the 38 Basic Joseki book, but was overwhelmed by the sheer number of variations in it.

So, say I could manage to study the main lines of 10 to 12 joseki. Assume I am 20-15 kyu, and just want something to take me to sdk. Which ones would be your must-know ones for that list? I am fine with restricting it to 3-4 and 4-4 corners, as they seem by far the most common.

amnal · #2

The real benefit to joseki for all but fairly strong players is to see what can happen. There's little to no value in playing a game and thinking 'ah, I know what the joseki move is next', but there's a great deal of value in getting to that position and having a feel for where might be good to play and to focus your reading. This will be far more generally useful.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 5 7 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 6 2 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

A good example is, I think, this joseki beginning (edit: now above). The question is where to play next? Now, there are lots of variations with lots of depth for the joseki as a whole, but the really important question will probably turn out to be this one...and many many players get it wrong because they don't realise they can and should wedge next (see below). I think a lot of the value of joseki study is revealing these not necessarily obvious shape moves, which may also be useful in other situations, so as to get a handle on the vital turning points of the shape. If you get this move right and are confident that it's a reasonable move, much of the rest of the joseki is 'easy' to read or to at least make a reasonable play at.

A common joseki continuation is the left below - try and read it, and note that it's basically all forced once black plays 2 (white can play a :w7:

at

but I won't go into it and it's relatively unusual and there's probably a ladder involved - in fact, my saying that is an example of exactly this kind of study, I know to think about ladders in this shape and can probably construct a reasonable sequence even though I don't know the 'joseki' followups), so remembering this single important move is the crux point. If you understand why the wedge is okay, you've learnt the most important thing, and memorising more moves is less important. Of course there is still more useful information if you want to research it more...for instance, there are good reasons that white doesn't play :w7:

at

.

Compare to the right; if white doesn't wedge in, black connects easily and just takes lots of territory, whilst white's outside shape isn't usually good enough compensation as the shape is bad (it looks like he's pushed from behind and he could have got into the corner a bit) and black can act to counter or even attack it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . 6 3 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O X X 1 X . . . . . X 2 X X O 6 . | $$ | . . X O O 2 . . . , . . . 1 O O X 4 . | $$ | . . 7 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

As such, I don't think there's much value in any kind of deep study of variations or trying to look strictly at a set that you consider likely to come up. If nothing else, you'll find your opponents never actually play the things

. Instead, I think there's a lot of value in keeping an eye on them as a specific topic when reviewing your games - simply ask the question in any sequence, what could have gone differently...and knowing that, should you have played differently? Is there a different move you prefer? Is there a clever move that turns out to work well but that would be hard to read on the spot? This way you get to see lots of joseki that are relevant to your actual games, which makes them easier to remember as well as actually useful.

I personally used to use kogos joseki 'dictionary' via eidogo. This is fine for basic shapes, but if you use it you should be very aware that it does have mistakes and misleading comments in...it's fine if you're careful and aware of that, but don't take it as fact. There are also many other references now like dailyjoseki and josekipedia, but I haven't looked at them for a while. They probably come with the same caveats as eidogo.

TIM82 · #3

As a not-perfect starting point (I do not agree with the list fully):

http://senseis.xmp.net/?JosekiEveryDDKShouldKnow

Josekis 1-3,6-7,9-10,13 make most sense in that list to me. I would add at least 34 point - low aproach - low 1-space pincer to the list.

I would not worry at all aboout memorizing or studying long variations on any of those, but just having some feel of a few basic options and typical outcomes after the first three or so moves.

Addentum: I agree with Amnal fully. The first paragraph of his post is especially important. Above list tries to list some situations where you might want to try to get that feel of "what might happen". Basically:
* 44 point - low approach - extension, 1-space pincer (low/high) or attachment?
* 34 point - low or high approach - 1-space low pincer or some extension?
* anything else that comes up in your games very ofetn

gowan · #4

I would recommend thinking about why certain moves are made rather than memorizing joseki, even very basic ones. The problem is that, especially in the double digit kyu strength range your opponents will often not play the joseki moves. This can result in frustration on your part because it seems they aren't playing the right moves but you don't know what to do to take advantage. Start thinking about issues like dividing up the corner area, one player getting territory, the other outside power, or I get the right side, he gets the left side. A fundamental mistake people often make is thinking some place is their territory when, in fact, it isn't secure yet. Think about not getting sealed in, staying connected, all those basic things. You also need to focus on solving life-and-death problems because that is one place where beginners get in trouble in corner situations. This http://senseis.xmp.net/?HermanHiddema%2 ... rningOrder is a good SL page on beginning joseki. If you must learn patterns, try this SL page: http://senseis.xmp.net/?JosekiEveryDDKShouldKnow
Finally, don't think it is beneath you to look at what is on this page http://senseis.xmp.net/?BeginnerStudySection

skydyr · #5

In addition to the advice mentioned here, I would recommend browsing through the joseki book very quickly, not to look at variations, but just at the starting positions to get a feel for what is possible. This may be as quick as looking over the diagrams in the table of contents, or for a little more detail, you can look at the first page of each joseki for a very basic idea of when it is played and what each side is trying to accomplish. You just need an idea of how people tend to approach a corner stone, nothing more.

Once you have some ideas as to where to start, go play some games. When something happens in a corner, try and decide if you got the best of the situation, or what have you, and then look up patterns for the specific way you and your opponent played. Sometimes it will hew fairly closely to a published joseki, and you will get an idea of things to look for. Other times it will be completely different. Either way, you'll get a little more context, and it's easier to keep from getting lost and make the diagrams relevant when you've just been thinking about the same situation in a game. You don't have to memorize the variations, and I would recommend against it, to be honest. It's more to give you something to move your thinking along when you see it next. It also means you'll be looking at at most 4 joseki at a time, so you shouldn't get overwhelmed.

PeterPeter · #6

Some great ideas and links, thanks.

I certainly don't want anything too deep, or to get into rote memorisation of long sequences. Just something to stop me blundering away a corner within the first few stones from each side. After that, I have got something a bit clearer to start reading.

BTW, it would be nice if these joseki had some more interesting or memorable names. It would help with discussing and remembering them.

amnal · #7

PeterPeter wrote:

BTW, it would be nice if these joseki had some more interesting or memorable names. It would help with discussing and remembering them.

Some of course have famous names, but even within them there's so much room for variation that I'm not sure a suite of names would help.

Being localised sequences, they are fairly amenable to easy description. For instance, a reply to an approach is probably a pincer (one space, two space, high, low etc.), or a jump (small knights move or large knights move, or one space jump, or whatever...they all have recognisable descriptive terms). This is usually more useful for actually describing them, especially aided by waving your hands around and shouting. Discussing over a board is, of course, always going to be easier.

For instance, if describing the joseki in my above post to someone (who presumably already would know it), it'd be black 4-3, white high approach, one space low pincer, white attaches underneath, black hane, white cut, black push, white wedge. If they know the joseki, they know what I'm talking about. If they don't, the exercise is probably futile anyway.

Edit: This is the route SL seems to take, e.g. from the joseki page to the descriptively named 34PointHighApproachOneSpaceLowPincer33Attachment

PeterPeter · #8

"3-4 point, high approach, one-space low pincer, 3-3 attachment" is highly descriptive, but not very human, and very similar to "3-4 point, low approach, one-space low pincer, 3-3 attachment" (did you see the change?), but with a very different outcome.

Naming them after their originating player or location is mostly impractical due to the long history of Go, of course. It would be convenient if we could call the first 4 moves of "3-4 point, high approach, one-space low pincer, 3-3 attachment" after a shape it resembled, like we do with farmers' hats and bamboo joints.

SmoothOper · #9

I personally prefer studying Fuseki first. Then sort of patching the holes in my framework(s) and strategies with Joseki, ie deftly handling approach moves, IE look the common moves up in a Joseki dictionary when they occur. The real problem for me is handling non-Joseki moves that are not immediately deleterious, since you can't look those up, and they occur more frequently than you might expect.

I think many people skip studying Fuseki and learn hoshi/handicap type Fuseki and Joseki associated with those, which is a bit of a pain, because the hoshi stone is vulnerable to attack for such a long period in the game and it takes at least two stones to enclose the corner, furthermore it doesn't really have much influence in the center or sides, and therefore you have to learn many Joseki variations.

otenki · **#10**

Hmm joseki,

I'll tell you that you don't need joseki, but probably thats not true and you are not going to believer it.
Howhever learning joseki without understanding so many things like life & death and shape is not going to help.

I recommend doing lots of tsumego on life and death. Then go study some joseki.

You are not going to believe that either right... ok lets take a very recent game of mine.

I played san-ren-sei and my oponent played a typical keima aproach to my 4-4 stones.

I pincered and we played a basic joseki where he took the corner and I took the influence.

Howhever after he tenuki'd later I started pushing this group. (which is another joseki move)
My oponent could not read the life and death I guess and played a wrong defensive move.
After that I killed the corner.

So what I'm trying to say is that learning the joseki sequence really is not enough.

Understanding and being able to read life and death is soooooo important.
In this case being able to read that one move was worth 30 points!

Howhever it is good to learn a few basic responses to moves. The rest you can usualy figure out by reading. (if it is not a taisha like joseki)

So my advice in a nutshell:

- Study life & death by reading (tsumego), not by theory.
- Check some basic answers to certain moves when you encounter them.
- Study good local responses with stronger players to understand why moves are good and/or necisary.

Enjoy :-)

Otenki

jts · **#11**

You can't really be hurt by "not knowing joseki", as opposed to "not being able to read very deeply". For example, in amnal's first diagram, if your opponent had white and played the "wrong" move, how would you reply? Can you guarantee that you would get a better result than if he had played the "right" move? This is why amnal is saying that you can look at joseki to get an idea for possible outcomes, but memorizing them would be less fruitful.

I would suggest making sure you have a firm grasp of basics first (things like cutting, connecting, counting liberties, spotting good and bad ladders and nets - amnal's wedge would fall under "creating cutting points"), then look at tesuji ("add a second stone and sacrifice both") and making shape, and only then begin looking at joseki for fun examples of how to set up tesuji and make good shape, while putting off memorizing joseki for their own sake for as long as possible.

If you are really bummed out by this impression you have that you are losing because your opponents know joseki, stop playing 3-4 and 4-4. Go with 5-5, 3-5, 4-5, and 4-6. It's much less likely that your opponents will have studies the "correct" sequences.

PeterPeter · **#12**

I do find reading very difficult very early on in a corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In the top right corner, I would struggle to do much good reading for either side. There is too much open space, too many variables. But in the top left, I could read out most life-and-death sequences for white. I just need a few solid moves to take me from the first corner to the second.

jts · **#13**

How would you read out the variations that follow from this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$....... $$....... $$...2... $$..1.... $$.......[/go]

Or this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$......... $$......... $$....2.... $$...1..... $$......... $$.........[/go]

PeterPeter · **#14**

I would expect something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$....... $$....... $$.a42b.. $$..13... $$.......[/go]

After which I would probably hane at 'a' or 'b', depending on the surroundings. White then seems to have a few options, so that is when my reading runs out of steam.

:w4:

could also easily be at 'b'.

I think sides are a little more forgiving than corners of mistakes?

The second (open-board) one is more difficult, and highly dependent on the location on the board and the surrounding stones. I would expect to extend alongside :w2:

in either direction.

Uberdude · **#15**

PeterPeter wrote:

I would expect something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$....... $$....... $$.a42b.. $$..13... $$.......[/go]

After which I would probably hane at 'a' or 'b', depending on the surroundings. White then seems to have a few options, so that is when my reading runs out of steam.

:w4:

could also easily be at 'b'.

I think sides are a little more forgiving than corners of mistakes?

Your block at 3 is saying the centre is more important than the side. This is usually not the case: corners, then sides, then centre. Thus when your 4th line stone is armpit hit the block which develops the side is usually best and should be your instinct:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$....... $$....... $$..32... $$..1.... $$.......[/go]

P.S. This is not a joseki and is good for black.

PeterPeter wrote:

The second (open-board) one is more difficult, and highly dependent on the location on the board and the surrounding stones. I would expect to extend alongside :w2:

in either direction.

Indeed, one of the blocks is almost always the right move and then what happens next who knows. But the example on the side you want to block the side.

peppernut · **#16**

For really studying joseki, I agree with gowan; you want to understand the meaning behind the moves or else you are wasting your time.

For a beginner though, I think it's worth knowing a handful of two-movers as well because everyone has to respond to what his opponent plays. Memorizing these are fine as you can also consider them as kinds of basic shapes. When you encounter them in joseki, you can play a shape move. That way you have a position to start from without making a total mess of it straight away.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ "answer a keima with a kosumi" $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . . 4 . $$ |. . 1 , . . . . . $$ |. . . 3 . . . . .[/go]

(Edit: I originally didn't notice that the white stones were shifted up one line in the following diagram, and I don't want to leave a grossly incorrect diagram, so I fixed it).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ (edited) $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , 2 . . . . $$ |. . . . . 4 . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . 5 3 4 . . . 8 $$ |. . 1 , 2 6 . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . . $$ |. . 7 . . . . . . .[/go]

In Japanese this is called tsuke-hiki, and it is a common flow-of-stones pattern. It also occurs in the middlegame. In this 3-4 joseki form, both White and Black make a base for their stones to complete the joseki.

These are things that as a beginner you can use a lot without getting bogged down in variations.

Uberdude · **#17**

peppernut wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , . 4 . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

amnal · **#18**

Uberdude wrote:

peppernut wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . 2 . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , . 4 . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Looks like Chen Zude played it 3 times, it's gotta be good!

Edit: More constructively, perhaps peppernut meant this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------- $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . . $$ |. . . . . . 3 . . $$ |. . 1 , 2 . . . . $$ |. . . . . 4 . . . $$ |. . . . . . . . .[/go]

jts · **#19**

Okay, I was going to make a point a bit more fundamental than the one Uberdude did.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$....... $$....... $$...2... $$..13... $$.......[/go]

This emphasizes the center...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$....... $$....... $$..32... $$..1.... $$.......[/go]

... and this emphasizes the side. But either can be perfectly acceptable in some board situation. The key is to pressure the white stone. Now, as a matter of fact,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$......| $$......| $$...2..| $$..13..| $$......|[/go]

... if this situation occurs in the corner, you can gain strength in the center and the side at the same time, whichever side you block on. Now, next:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$....... $$....... $$.a42b.. $$..13... $$.......[/go]

You correctly identify that this :w4:

gives B a good move (the hane at the head of stone stones) that W will find painful. So (all else equal) W can try to avoid this by extending in the other direction. By reading ahead three moves, you brainstorm about how your opponent is likely to reply to your first move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$....... $$....... $$..a24.. $$..13... $$.....b.[/go]

Now A is probably good, but B continues to emphasize the center.

But to go back to the corner situation that had you confused:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------- $$......| $$......| $$.ba24.| $$..13..| $$......|[/go]

This

leaves W with nowhere to run! So instead you'll expect him to play at A, and then you need to read to see whether Black's powerful hane at the head of two stones can be played.

What I was trying to suggest is that you should think about the corners in the exact same way you think about sequences along the sides or in the middle. Read ahead, one move at a time. Once you've played it out a lot it will become familiar, and you'll be acquainted with all the normal ins-and-outs of the sequence. At that point, reading a book like 38 Basic Joseki will help you drill in why some sequences work, why others fail, what weakness each side is aiming at later in the game, and so on.

Bill Spight · **#20**

At your stage I would not study joseki, per se, at all. As gowan said, what do you do when your opponent does not play joseki. You will be thrust upon your own understanding sooner or later. Playing by the book does not really help you develop understanding.

Here is my suggestion. You get what seems to be a bad result in a corner. Presumably you thought about your play during the game. If not, think about it during your replay. If you still are not satisfied, play around with the position, explore possibilities. Remember, children are champion learners, and they play a lot.

If you still are not satisfied, look it up. Maybe you got a reasonable result, after all. Maybe you missed a tesuji. Joseki books will probably tell you. Online resources are not quite as reliable, but are also useful. You can also use databases to see what pros played in similar situations.

How to get started with joseki?

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