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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #101 Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't know about AlphaGo, but this is a position about which Go Seigen was ambivalent. In his 10 book set, 21st Century Go, there is one place where he likes it for White, one place where he doesn't.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My sealed move. :)

Edit: Unhidden.


Now we do know about AlphaGo! It also preferred the cut. :-) In fact, it would have cut immediately at 10 (and connected for 9).
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #102 Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . 3 . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I decided that if White does a double approach, both the pincer and the descent into the corner look rather promising. I think that if White plays at , I'm happy enough to continue at [i]b. As White, I don't think I'd play that way, but that may be my greed/jealousy speaking.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . 3 . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . b . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . a . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Of the two double approaches, the distant one at c was harder to think about a next move against. I'm not sure that makes it good, but I'm most uncertain about it.

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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #103 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . 3 . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . 8 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I tend to move fast in these games (relatively speaking) because I struggle to use the extra thinking time of a correspondence game. There aren’t any immediate life and death concerns for me right now, so it’s mostly evaluating the result of the position. But that is hard to do, and I’m not sure I do it more effectively when I spend more than about 15 minutes in the problem. Mostly it comes down to intuition and thinking about my strategic goals.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . 3 . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . e 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . a . . d X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X T X . . b . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I considered all of a-e. I didn’t really look at jumping into the corner right now because it would basically remove all of the weaknesses in black’s position. I felt b is too low; I could get pressed down very easily. c doesn’t feel right yet; black’s last move doesn’t make me want to abandon my stone. E starts a fight that will also remove weaknesses in black’s position. I think the move I chose threatens the big center while leaving enough weakness on the right /in the corner that I may be able to make a follow up move there after settling my group. It also threatens a move at the marked point in the future that could potentially help me break into the center or make a big territory on the bottom.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #104 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:29 pm 
Tengen

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #105 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 4 . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I can profit from a fight here, and I still don't think I can afford to play passively. If I'm wrong and this group on the bottom dies, it will force me to resign.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #106 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:46 am 
Tengen

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GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 4 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . 5 . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #107 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:01 pm 
Lives in sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 4 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . 6 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . 5 . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Three priorities: Stay connected, make eyespace, and don't get sealed in. If I have a group fighting for life, I want it to be a fight that destroys the center.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 4 . b . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . , . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X x X x 5 a c . W . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also considered a-d. a and d both give black the opportunity to seal me in along the side. b is enticing, but I think the move I chose leads to a more favorable fight. If I live in the center and marked stone gets cut off, that's not a big deal to me, and there is aji at the x points.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #108 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:46 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4382
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OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 4 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . 6 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . 5 7 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Quote:
This far, these are all the moves that I imagined, following the knight's move.

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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #109 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 4 . 8 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . 6 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . 5 7 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I will almost certainly have to sacrifice the O3 stone. I hope I can profit enough in the center to make forming this weak group worth the cost, but I'm not sure that I will.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #110 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:23 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . a X b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The ideas for me are a and b. b seems like the obvious shape move, and a would make a bad shape (peeping at both sides of a bamboo joint. That leaves the question of whether to play b as a king. It seems rather appealing.

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #111 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:01 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . X # . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . a X # . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is real risk that I could be in a situation where this stone needs to work to live. The question, however, is not whether that's a risk. It's whether managing that risk by playing more safely is likely to cost me multiple points. I'm not so sure.

Btw: I say multiple points, because once you've played one king, it becomes substantially easier to play further ones. Of course, not all would be: for instance, if White plays a, I'll respond with a non-king at b.

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Offline schultz
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #112 Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:27 am 
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Not for players.
I'm still waiting for there to be more direct play around the kings. Ed mentioned some possibilities around C14 and seems to me that black could work that to an advantage forcing around an instant lose piece. Seems like now would be the time to try and work that to an advantage before we move to far into the middle game.

Thanks for continuing this game. It's been fun to watch so far, and looking forward to more!

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #113 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:31 pm 
Tengen

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It's been the holidays, so I'm just double checking that you saw my last move.

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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #114 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Yes, sorry!

I was very busy over the holidays and now I’m starting a new semester at work. I haven’t forgotten about the game!

This post by jeromie was liked by: luigi
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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #115 Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . X B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . X X @ . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry for the long delay!
I've got myself in a bit of a pickle here. I want to jump out into the middle, but I need to take care of my group first. With this move, I admit that my group is heavy and start adding kings to it. I don't think there is anyway I can sacrifice this group and still have any hope of winning the game. I honestly think I've handled the group on the bottom poorly and it's very unlikely I'll win at this point, but it's not quite time to resign.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #116 Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:14 am 
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This is a good move that I unfortunately didn't consider. I was so focused on the white group moving out into the center,
I didn't think about the chance to make eyespace in sente.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #117 Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:45 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . X B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . X X O . O . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am not an expert on kingo, but with regular go, black would win by playing here, I think.

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #118 Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:35 pm 
Tengen

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Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . X # . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X a X b X X @ . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My initial reaction was that I thought this move worked really nicely for White because I would have to defend around a or b, but I don't think that's the case.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . X B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . 0 7 9 . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X 6 X . X X @ . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 3 . . . . X B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 2 . . . O . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X 1 O X X . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X O X . X X @ . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sacrificing the two stones might even be better as well.

If that's right, I'll have to figure out the best move to play elsewhere. :B49: jumps to mind, but there's also plenty elsewhere, and even if there's nothing he can do immediately at a or b, I may still want to avoid giving his group a forcing move.

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #119 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:04 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4382
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Liked others: 499
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OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . X B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . X . X X @ . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W W W . |
$$ | . . W , . . . X . , . . . . B X B . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . g . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . X B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . f . O . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . e . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X c X d X X @ . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After reading out moves at c, d, e and f, I don't think I need to be worried there. With that settled, I ended up looking hardest at a and b. I think a isn't actually that big, and b is bigger if I go for expanding/solidifying my moyo.

Late in the process, I looked at :b49:. My biggest concern is that I'm not sure how easy it is for White to undermine my corner. But when I read out the 3-3 point, it didn't seem like there's anything good for White. Maybe a kakari/submarine move would be forcing, which helps him invade the moyo.

As far as the center, I think that denying him an easy life on the side will make him want to come out near f or g. After that, I hope to continue expanding the moyo as he runs out.

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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Post #120 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:44 am 
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Just wanted to let you know that I saw your move and will have an update in the next day or so. :-)
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