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 Post subject: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #1 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:33 pm 
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I'm playing a game with Chew Terr in which he'll take black with reversed komi. This will be an open game, so we'll be free to read each other's (and observers'?) comments. If you are an observer and don't want me to read your comments or just want to make me crazy and paranoid, please make a note.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #2 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:46 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hey again, all. This is where I would introduce myself, but you've probably seen my introduction before, as this isn't my first rodeo (I can't help it, that phrase amuses me). I'm currently 5k, so this should be an exciting game from my perspective. I just need to play normally, and not let my opponent scare me. Similarly to how I played black against Fwiffo, I intend to play the the Kobayashi Opening. That is, if my opponent plays star points. If not, I'll decide how to respond based on where the stones are.


As Shaddy said, we will read all comments that are not specifically marked 'For observers only' and whatnot. Thank you for the game, Shaddy!

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Shaddy has been struck by a fey mood!
You win ten cookies if you understand that reference. I'm planning on playing the Great Wall to intimidate Chew. If you are Chew, be intimidated. Rawr.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #4 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:00 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A friend of mine will be telling me I've already lost, as Tengen = game. However, I may as well play it out, and see what happens. New plan! As my opponent wants influence and to start fights, I'm going to try less to get moyos, and instead take a corner. Starting in the center is good for fighting and moyobusting, so I'll take points where I know they'll be. As for fights, I've played enough Ogre Battle to know what to do ("Fight it out!"). At this point I'm not worried about my opponent taking points in the middle, because tengen is a very inefficient way to do that.


edit: Thanks, Red =D

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Last edited by Chew Terr on Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #5 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Chew is very confident, playing a white stone ...

Also, Dwarf Fortress.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #6 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:13 pm 
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I must say, Shaddy playing tengen here amuses me. I guess you can't rely on book knowledge here, Chew.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #7 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:14 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tengen, an inefficient way to take points in the center? I will disabuse you of that notion. Anyway, great wall time. I like that 3-3 was played, because it goes perfectly with my idea to take influence.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #8 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:03 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
I'm planning on playing the Great Wall to intimidate Chew.


Yes! I was actually thinking of doing this in my malkovich game but I chickened out. This will be a fun game.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #9 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:24 am 
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Come on then, let's fight says I!

This is my idea of fun anyway, probably not Chew's ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #10 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:48 am 
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Why are you using spoilers at all when it's an open game?

Let's see if b allows w to complete the wall.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #11 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:19 am 
Gosei
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Chew, you just have to stop him from claiming a workshop and he'll go mad...

Anyway, I'm sure I saw a KGS+ lecture where Tengen was talked about, in that its meaning wasn't a stake in points in the centre, but aside from effecting ladder joseki, was generally useful in reducing large opposing frameworks. Though maybe the meaning changes when you complete your tengen fuseki with a great wall ...

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #12 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:27 am 
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Loons wrote:
Tengen [...] effecting ladder joseki [...]


Huh? Au contraire: if there is a stone at tengen, the opponent will always try to avoid ladders.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #13 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:29 am 
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Harleqin wrote:
Loons wrote:
Tengen [...] effecting ladder joseki [...]


Huh? Au contraire: if there is a stone at tengen, the opponent will always try to avoid ladders.


I'm pretty certain this was implicit in the previous post wasn't it? Aside from the a/e-ffect typo anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #14 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:30 am 
Gosei
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I meant effecting ladder joseki choice (ie no longer viable for Tengen's opponent), rather than affecting ladder joseki.


Edit: Oops, got my affects and effects mixed up. Cue muttering about family history of dyslexia. I'll leave the mistake for your posts' context.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #15 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:47 am 
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topazg wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
Loons wrote:
Tengen [...] effecting ladder joseki [...]


Huh? Au contraire: if there is a stone at tengen, the opponent will always try to avoid ladders.


I'm pretty certain this was implicit in the previous post wasn't it? Aside from the a/e-ffect typo anyway...


It is funny how such a "minor" spelling error can almost reverse the meaning, isn't it? :twisted:

For reference: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/affect.html.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #16 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:50 am 
Gosei
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I'm in favor of a moderator deleting these last several posts.

Obviously I wasn't trying to suggest something absurd (that Chew should now try and play ladders because they wouldn't work for him), as Topazg notes.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k) Open
Post #17 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:24 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah, not entirely sure the best way to fight this. Obviously avoiding ladder joseki (that's part of what I meant earlier when I said that tengen affects fighting). As I said previously, Shaddy's central influence will also help him be able to break up moyos. I suspect already that the largest moyo will be in the center. So I'll take points, build solid groups, and prepare to break up a central moyo if my humble opponent tries for one. I'm playing the 3-4 on this side so that Shaddy can't get an ideal approach.


Responses to observers:
LiKao: We use hide tags just to compress post size, and so that planning diagrams are not confused with actual moves.

Dusk: Yeah, I don't know much of anything about this fuseki, so I'm attempting to build a basic understanding from general fuseki principles, which... I'm not sure how well this will go. I've played against a great wall-like opening once in a tournament, but I was playing a game where I was given four handicap stones, which obviously changed the game entirely.

Topazg: One thing at a time! ;) My opponent may be turning 'Corner, side, center' on its head, but I'm going to stick with it and see how it goes. After all, I haven't read that far in Sector Fights yet! I'm really curious how the board will look after the opening

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I expect something like this: I take each corner, then my opponent presses me down in the bottom left with the 4-4, then I get sente (if I'm willing to take it) to close the bottom right corner. Though I may not take sente from the bottom left, because getting shut in could hurt badly.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k) Open
Post #18 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:14 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

According to plan, so far. By the way, the Great Wall looks like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but I'm considering stopping with the star points. It's somewhat harder to complete as white, because black gets so many free moves. Maybe I'll get sente elsewhere and come back to fix it.
One more thing!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 1 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . a . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This 1 is joseki, not a, because if White plays a, Black can extend up and give him a cutting point.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #19 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:20 am 
Gosei
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Posts: 2060
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GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thanks for showing me that joseki error, Shads. At least I only made the error on my opponent's side of the joseki~. This move is what I promised I'd do. I'm playing high because I don't want to give a good approach, and also want my stone to work well with the top, in case anything interesting happens there. Still expecting the 4-4 from Shadonralkovich, instead of him finishing that wall.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #20 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:54 am 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 1206
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Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was extremely, extremely tempted to defy Chew's expectations, but I don't think I can justify finishing the wall and allowing him all those enclosures. Feels too solid for Black.

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