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 Post subject: Moyo by examples
Post #1 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:16 pm 
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I had an idea to look for examples of moyo (模様). It is a very interesting word. It often simply means pattern, as the pattern on the back of playing cards, according to dictionaries. The word appears to have earned an entire new dimension in when used as a loanword and I suspect that the patterns that are meant when the word "moyo" is invoked are often much smaller and tighter than what many Western players idea is about moyo.

I looked a sensei's and there were only a few examples and none of them are sourced in the sense that I could tell who said it was a moyo. The examples I found were also all big moyo (大模様) if they were moyo at all. This is not surprising since instead of a page about moyo there is a page about frameworks. "Framework" could be understood to be big moyo or just something completely different. This is rather clear from the sensei's entry.

Then I did a google image search and wasn't sure if the images where of moyo or not, so I searched a blog by a Nihon Kiin professional and found some mentions of moyo in recent professional games, I think I will make those my first examples.

Maybe someone has other sourced examples, feel free to add good examples of moyo. I think it can be worthwhile to study moyo, both in terms of what it means and what the pattern is on the board.

==edit==
some typos


Last edited by kvasir on Fri Feb 16, 2024 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Moyo by examples
Post #2 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:34 pm 
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The first example is from the first game of the 26th Female Kisei. Ueno Asami is white and Nakamura Sumire is black.

The following diagram is referred to as being a moyo in a blog post by Shiraishi Yuichi 7 dan. I'm not going to copy the comments but what I gathered is that there is a black moyo after :b77: and it is even better after :b78:. I find it interesting that this moyo is sort of one move away from being almost secure territory. I think this kind of moyo is fairly common, even in AI play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm77
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 3 . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O X . . O O O . X . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X X O O . O X X . X O . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X O . . O X . X X O X X . X . . .|
$$ | . . X O . . O X . O O O . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X O . X O X . O X . . O . X . . .|
$$ | . . X O . O X X . O . . O X X . . . .|
$$ | . X . X O . O X X . . . O . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . X O . . O X O . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


The game record

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 Post subject: Re: Moyo by examples
Post #3 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 10:13 pm 
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The second example is from a blog post about the preliminary finals for the 6th SGW cup to the same blog that was mentioned in the previous post.

Black is Ogaki Yusaku 9 dan white is Iguchi Toyohide 8 dan. I find this example to be very interesting, :b1: is described as erasing a moyo. If that is what happened, that white erased a moyo, then here is an example of a moyo with unclear boundaries that is also rather small.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . O . .|
$$ | . . X O . . . . X O . X . O O . . . .|
$$ | . . X O . . . . X , O O O X . , X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ | . X O . . . X . . O . 2 . X . X . . .|
$$ | . . X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . X O . X X . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . . , X . .|
$$ | . . X . O . O . X . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . O X .|
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X .|
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X O O .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O .|
$$ | . . X O X . . . X , . . . . X O O . .|
$$ | . O O O . O . . O O . O . X X X X O .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


The game record is available on the SGW cup tournament listing on the Nihon Kiin website (which is unusial) but I don't know how to download the SGF and didn't find the SGF elsewhere so you are directed there for the game record.

===Edit==
You might be able to open the game with this URL https://u-gen.nihonkiin.or.jp/kifu_new/giboviewer/giboviewer.asp?gibo=16102/8SGWyosenF_ogaki_iguchi_20230810.sgf


Last edited by kvasir on Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by kvasir was liked by: xela
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 Post subject: Re: Moyo by examples
Post #4 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:04 pm 
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kvasir wrote:
The game record is available on the SGW cup tournament listing on the Nihon Kiin website (which is unusual) but I don't know how to download the SGF and didn't find the SGF elsewhere so you are directed there for the game record.

Where exactly? I've found a page at https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/sgw/006.html with what looks like a crosstable and links to player profiles, but I can't see how to get to a game record from there.

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 Post subject: Re: Moyo by examples
Post #5 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:14 pm 
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xela wrote:
Where exactly? I've found a page at https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/sgw/006.html with what looks like a crosstable and links to player profiles, but I can't see how to get to a game record from there.

This is the page on the Nihon Kiin web https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/sgw/006.html
the game is the final of the 7th preliminary bracket and there is a link there are two links there, it is the one that says "棋譜" which is a javascript link that opens the game.

I don't know how to download the SGF but if you have don't find the link then you can try this URL https://u-gen.nihonkiin.or.jp/kifu_new/giboviewer/giboviewer.asp?gibo=16102/8SGWyosenF_ogaki_iguchi_20230810.sgf

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 Post subject: Re: Moyo by examples
Post #6 Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:48 pm 
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There is a process from big empty region via influence sphere and then moyo to hopefully territory region. Therefore, moyo is not clearly defined to separate it from its weaker or stronger forms.

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Post #7 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 1:19 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
There is a process from big empty region via influence sphere and then moyo to hopefully territory region. Therefore, moyo is not clearly defined to separate it from its weaker or stronger forms.


Yes. This is something that is easily understood in principle but it doesn't directly help with recognizing moyo or when it is useful to use this word. As a strategic concept it shouldn't be surprising that it can be used differently and that different people have slightly different understanding of what it is. Still I think there is benefit from learning strategic terms from good examples, at least it is better than bad examples :)

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Post #8 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:18 am 
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kvasir wrote:

Thanks for the link. As I suspected, if you choose "view source", you can find the text of the SGF contained within the HTML source. You just need to copy and paste it into a file. Here it is:



Attachments:
Ogaki-Iguchi-2023-08-10.sgf [1.27 KiB]
Downloaded 365 times
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Post #9 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:24 am 
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kvasir wrote:
I had an idea to look for examples of moyo (模様). It is a very interesting word. It often simply means pattern, as the pattern on the back of playing cards, according to dictionaries. The word appears to have earned an entire new dimension in when used as a loanword and I suspect that the patterns that are meant when the word "moyo" is invoked are often much smaller and tighter than what many Western players idea is about moyo.

I looked a sensei's and there were only a few examples and none of them are sourced in the sense that I could tell who said it was a moyo. The examples I found were also all big moyo (大模様) if they were moyo at all. This is not surprising since instead of a page about moyo there is a page about frameworks. "Framework" could be understood to be big moyo or just something completely different. This is rather clear from the sensei's entry.

This is curious. Now I'm trying to remember where I first learned the word "moyo". It was before I'd discovered Sensei's Library (how did I live???) I've always understood it as "area of influence, can be big or small". I've found that if someone says "I like to play a moyo game", they are usually trying to build an 80+ point moyo, but I've never thought that was the only meaning of the word. Three stones can make a moyo in part of one quarter of the board.

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Post #10 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:30 pm 
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xela wrote:
This is curious. Now I'm trying to remember where I first learned the word "moyo". It was before I'd discovered Sensei's Library (how did I live???) I've always understood it as "area of influence, can be big or small". I've found that if someone says "I like to play a moyo game", they are usually trying to build an 80+ point moyo, but I've never thought that was the only meaning of the word. Three stones can make a moyo in part of one quarter of the board.


Yes. What I mainly meant is that the word "framework" doesn't seem like a good starting point for examples of moyo. Framework evokes that there is some structure and organization to it, that making territory from the moyo rest on the soundness of the framework. However, many moyo are really amorphous beasts that occur naturally in the course of the game. Another starting point for finding examples is to look for games with moyo and commentary that identifies the moyo. These are also examples when the moyo situation was played like a moyo situations, some of the framework examples aren't like that.

Probably stronger players have a more useful understanding of such concepts than weaker players, and they would be more likely to have learned the words from a good source (maybe after they got good at applying the concept).

Anyway, I don't think any dictionary like definition of the word moyo can really replace examples.

I think I will post more examples when I feel like doing so :)

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Post #11 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:51 pm 
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OK, now you've got me paying more attention to the word! Here is diagram 24 from Relentless, chapter 1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19m4 Gu Li - Lee Sedol game 1, moves 104-110
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 e . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 X c O 5 O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . a O d 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O X X X . X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O X O X . X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O X . O O O O X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . O X X O O X O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . O X X . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O X O . O O . . O . X . . |
$$ | . X O . O X X X . O . X . O . X . X . |
$$ | . X O . X O X . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The commentary says: "Black's position was too thin to cut with A to E [the previous chapter has some long variations showing how white can create a favourable capturing race], so Black switched to :b9: to developing his moyo in the top right."

Of course, after white's tesuji at :w10:, it's not a simple as that... But here we have a commentary team of a Korean professional plus an Australian amateur writing in English, choosing to use the Japanese word "moyo" here :-)

Full game record for anyone who's interested:


Attachments:
game1.sgf [1.77 KiB]
Downloaded 352 times
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Post #12 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:57 am 
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xela wrote:
K, now you've got me paying more attention to the word! Here is diagram 24 from Relentless, chapter 1.


I like this example a lot.

Sometimes I like to think of moyo in terms of which reinforcement stones I'd like to add to complete the moyo. In this case it is not so clear to me how I'd prefer to finish the moyo. There are two stones that feel right but after that there is a question of what to do on the top and about the aji white has to invade anyway if the third stone isn't tight. Note that one of the stones I add in the next diagram is, I think, smaller than other moves in the moyo and I might not include it if playing there feels like it is far way. It appears to me that this moyo is one of those were my (possibly) original idea doesn't help much :)

Then there is that Lee Sedol appears to prefer to fight in his moyo rather than make territory. That is a recognized moyo strategy, but it is interesting that the moyo is wrecked.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Two stones that begin to finish the moyo.
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . O X . O O O Y O . X . . .|
$$ | . . X O . X . . O . X . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . X . O . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . X O X X X . X X X X X Y .|
$$ | . . . O . X O O X O X . X O O O O O .|
$$ | . . . O X . O O O O X O O . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O X . . O X X O O X O X . X . .|
$$ | . O O X X . O X X . O X X . . . . . .|
$$ | . X X O . X O X O , O O . . O , X . .|
$$ | . X O . O X X X . O . X . O . X . X .|
$$ | . X O . X O X . . . . . . . . . X O .|
$$ | . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

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Post #13 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:29 am 
Oza

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Quote:
Then there is that Lee Sedol appears to prefer to fight in his moyo rather than make territory. That is a recognized moyo strategy, but it is interesting that the moyo is wrecked.


Moyo maestro Takemiya Masaki was of the view that fighting inside a moyo rather than making territory was in fact the IDEAL strategy. The way he put it (in a Kido series) was "use a moyo to invite the opponent in and let him live small." I gave a lecture on that in the first London Go Centre, which everyone found eye-opening. Much later, I used some of the ideas from the series when I was producing the GoGoD Concepts Library. Bernd Schmidt of Germany found some incredible examples for it. The best was the following game.



In this game, Takemiya follows his own advice twice and, to boot, in the second case he lets the opponent live by killing. A third moyo wins the game! To quote my own final comment on that game, "It developed into a capturing race which Black (Takemiya Masaki) let White (Kato Masao) win. But this turned out to be a classic case of Oriental shi strategy, now of great interest to western military planners. They should study this game. Black lost the battle but won the war by concentrating exclusively on his grander aim, to keep his moyo strategy intact. Takemiya won by 2.5, most of his territory in a third moyo!"

Bernd found another example (Honda Kunihisa - Fujisawa Hosai, 1982) where the advice was expanded to let the opponent live not "small inside" but "huge inside."

I found an example myself where two moyo experts met and, because it was only an exhibition game, each gave full rein to their moyo inclinations. It was the following game.

Again I give part of my own final summary. I have bolded the portion that I think is especially worth paying attention to in these days of AI.



"Takemiya Masaki (Black) and Sonoda Yuichi. It was not the first time they have met, and other of their games (in the GoGoD database) show the characteristics we will mention here, but the previous efforts were serious, official games. As this was an exhibition game the headline writers could go to town. Inevitably one headline was Star Wars. Another was Final Battle in Space...

Takemiya had the advantage of being able to declare his moyo intentions first. What is very characteristic of games between moyo men is not a "my moyo is bigger than your moyo" contest, but a battle in the centre - an aerial battle, the Japanese call it.

We see that here with Sonoda's White 50. He is challenging Black's moyo in the most direct way possible, and so is accepting that the next phase of the game will be a struggle to achieve sabaki. As it happens he found a way with 68 and 70, which set up a squeeze play, at the end of which White (Sonoda) stood better - even though, at that point, Imamura Toshiya, the public commentator, thought that Black's territory in the lower right could be counted as 30 points.

Takemiya responded with a ferocious attempt at a come-back. He managed to mount successive waves of attacks, on white groups on the right, in the centre, at the top then in the top right. He engineered three ko fights, but was hampered by carelessly overlooking an atari when answering White 162 in the first one, and finally had to resign. This really was Star Wars stuff!"

I once asked Takemiya in person about his moyo strategy. He answered by showing a typical moyo of his and then putting two hands over it a few inches above the board. He then showed a more general kind of moyo used by other players. These could be encompassed with one hand, he said. The point he was making is that his moyos were so large that the opponent HAD to invade (and be allowed to live small).

It follows in my mind that the sentence "it is interesting that the moyo is wrecked" should be amended to "it is interesting that the moyo is transformed."

There are surprisingly few proverbs about moyos. I quoted some of them in the Concepts Library (as follows):

Quote:
Asaku kesu ni wa katatsuki, boushi - To keep a moyo shallow, reduce with shoulder hits and caps
Ippougo wa kiken nari - One-territory go is dangerous
San-san ni uchikomi ari - Invasion at the 3-3 point is always possible
Magusaba de rikimu na - Don't swagger about in no man's land


But there is one heuristic that I have never seen in the Orient yet I have found it the most useful of all for amateur play. There are quite a lot of heuristics that don't get mentioned because they never appear in pro play. I think this is one of them: "Don't chase an enemy group into your own moyo." I got this from British player Piers Shepperson, so I think we can count it as another western proverb.

It is also interesting to think about the contrast between this heuristic which mentions FORCING the opponent into a moyo and Takemiya's Venus fly trap strategy of INVITING the opponent into one. It is also stimulating to think what it is about a Takemiya moyo that equates to the trigger hairs of the VFT.

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