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 Post subject: Re: Beginnerish. . .
Post #21 Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:29 am 
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CygnusX1 wrote:
Furthermore, what struck me most about Mr. Verhofstadt's advice was something I('d like to think that I) kinda do with everything: "Maintain a critical attitude and continue to question what you think you know".


That was the coolest use of parenthesis I have ever seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginnerish. . .
Post #22 Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:14 pm 
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entropi wrote:

I don't believe that this discussion helps anything other than further confusing the original poster.



I meant to say in my earlier post that's bang on man.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginnerish. . .
Post #23 Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:51 pm 
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CygnusX1 wrote:
. . .but definitely weak. I started a coupla years ago, but played rarely. Now I want to come back to Go with full force. I play and study whenever I can. Any clues, tips, etc. are more than welcome.


You are jumping too much, and bending around things when it is not appropriate. Just count the liberties. If your stones have fewer liberties, you should extend solidly to gather strength.

For instance, your jump to C10 should be a solid extension to C9 (move 16), and your bend at G8 should be an extension to G9 (move 32). Just count the liberties of the stones in contact. Even a 30k must be able to do that.

You often end up with very fragile shapes because you are jumping and bending all over the place even when your stones are weaker. So my advice to you is always count the liberties when you are in a contact fight.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginnerish. . .
Post #24 Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:35 pm 
Judan
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entropi wrote:
If you anyway insist in playing on 19x19, the motto is "connect your stones, separate your opponents".


EdLee wrote:
"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.


Entropi's advice is relevant. There were numerous times in the game when you could have done better by connecting your stones or disconnecting the opponent's.

Nonetheless, EdLee's cautionary advice is also relevant. Connecting and disconnecting is not always the most important thing.

The issue behind this is that one has to know when connecting and disconnecting is important. Are the groups weak or strong? Weak groups can helped by being connected, or hurt by being disconnected. Strong groups are unaffected by either.
Entropi is correct that you should have connected some weak groups. EdLee is correct that you can take it too far - that you do not need to connect strong groups.

Are the stones weak or strong? That is the issue for you. You appear to be playing without regard for whether stones are weak or strong.

Some examples are below.

Before we get to those examples, do you have solid definitions of 'weak' and 'strong'?
Basically, a strong group is one that cannot be killed, that has two indispuable eyes or the capacity to make them. Or it can connect to a group that has eyes.
Weak groups are those that lack the aforementioned characteristics. A weak group does not have two eyes, and has no clear prospects for connecting to a group that does have eyes. When lacking those, being short of liberties is bad too.
Eyes and connections and liberties...Now, on to the examples...


Let's start after black's move #19. The board looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We'll go through group by group...

    Click Here To Show Diagram Code
    [go]$$c
    $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . b O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
    $$ | . B B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . a B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
    $$ | . c . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
    $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


    The marked stones in the diagram above are relatively strong. First, they are all connected. ( Sure, it is possible to cut at 'a', but that cutting stone dies very quickly. ) Second, they have eye space. There is probably enough space against the left side for eyes, and black can always play a move like 'b' or 'c' to get more.

    Click Here To Show Diagram Code
    [go]$$c
    $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . W S . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
    $$ | . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . X W S . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . X W S . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . . W . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
    $$ | . . . . W X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
    $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


    The marked white stones are sort of one group, or at least trying to be one. They have serious cutting points, indicated by the squares.
    Black can cut at those points, like this:

      Click Here To Show Diagram Code
      [go]$$Bc
      $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . W . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
      $$ | . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . X W 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . . W . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
      $$ | . . . . W X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
      $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


      ...or like this:

      Click Here To Show Diagram Code
      [go]$$Bc
      $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . W . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
      $$ | . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . X W 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . . W . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
      $$ | . . . . W X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
      $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


      ...or this:

      Click Here To Show Diagram Code
      [go]$$Bc
      $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . W 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
      $$ | . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . . W . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
      $$ | . . . . W X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
      $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


    There is no clear eye space for those stones either, although they could sort of secure some space with a play at the triangled point below.

    Click Here To Show Diagram Code
    [go]$$c
    $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . W . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
    $$ | . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . T W . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
    $$ | . . . . W X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
    $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
    $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In summary, the white group has several places where it can be disconnected, and the prospects for eyes are marginal. It is a weak group.
So white should probably play move #20 to strengthen it, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


{ It is getting near midnight here. More examples will appear in this post tomorrow. }

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This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by 3 people: CygnusX1, entropi, tezza
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 Post subject: Re: Beginnerish. . .
Post #25 Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:41 am 
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Thanks Joaz for cleaning up the discussion.
It is an important middle game concept to avoid creating weak groups and connecting your groups is an efficient way to do it. At least much more efficient than living small by making two eyes.

On the other hand, connecting already stong groups in the middle game is usually not efficient because there are most probably bigger points on board.

But what about end-game stage where more or less all the groups are settled? Connecting your groups even if they are already strong can still be a guide for finding big end-game moves. Of course this time the reasoning behind the idea of connecting is totally different than in the middle-game.

I would like to refer to the famous picture in Kageyama's book (Lessons in Fundamentals of Go) where he shows how much more efficiently the connected groups surround territory, but I don't have the picture.

I think the idea is simple. If your opponent separates your already alive groups, you still have to play dame points at the end for closing your territory thus taking away the points that would be yours if you were connected. You lose the points taken by your opponents separating stones, and the two dame points on two sides of the separaring stones.

Of course this doesn't mean that connecting is always the biggest end-game move but I think even at end-game stage it is still a valid guideline for finding the big points.

Again, the reasoning behind the idea of connecting at the middle-game and end-game stages are completely different but the principle is still the same.

Edit: Needless (or maybe not needless) to say that what I am saying are just general principles which cannot (and do not even intend to) replace move-reading and counting.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginnerish. . .
Post #26 Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:08 am 
Oza

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I think the proverb we're looking for is: Close fist before striking

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