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 Post subject: "New Moves" - review (sort of)
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:30 pm 
Oza

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Some months ago, in this forum, Alexandre Dinerchtein proposed that I should test his claims about the newness of moves in his book "New Moves" published in May 2010. A couple of examples have already been floated here and I used GoGoD to question the novelty aspect there, but as to the whole book, I said I would once I got a copy. I have only just got my copy this New Year at the London Open. I will now take up his challenge.

But as I am going to quibble with a few of his statements, let me state the positives and some caveats at the outset:

(a) I thought it was an excellent book. I liked the tone, the format, the lightness of touch, the range of selected moves, the variety of treatments in each chapter. There is nothing like this so far in English. Above all I enjoyed seeing how other minds work. This is always my favourite source of enjoyment and we get double rations here from two very different and nicely contrasting pros. I also felt, despite the quibbles below, that I could trust what they said. This aspect, in fact, is the most important feature of the book. The new moves here will soon become old hat, and that may dissuade you from buying it. Don't hesitate! It is not really a book about joseki moves. It is a much more important book about how to think about joseki moves. Whether it's suitable for kyus I don't feel competent to say, but I'd be strongly inclined to argue that it's never too early to acquire good thinking habits in go, and this would be a good source. In any case, many of the examples are so startlingly novel that there is much enjoyment to be had even if you don't play very much yourself.

(b) The nugatory quibbles listed below do not, in my view, detract one whit from the value of the book, though I think they have a certain interest in showing how different, interesting and useful database research can be, especially with pro guidance, as here.

(c) Mostly, I am simply going to claim earlier priority for many moves. In some cases the "new" moves are downright old. But the same criticisms can be made of many Oriental books, and even of people like Go Seigen. Go databases are, after all, a relatively new phenomenon. And, in that connection, it is necessary to stress that even early games in GoGoD may turn out to be not so early once more games are collected.

(d) A further problem with database searches of josekis is that the corner portion used and the surrounding position can make a marked difference to the results. Generally I use a 9x9 grid. A problem here was that it was not always clear whether AD was claiming novelty for a corner position, a side position or a whole fuseki. It doesn't matter in the context of the book, but I have had to make a possibly wrong judgement sometimes.

The quibbles

The book has 25 chapters, 23 of which cover a specific "new move". Sometimes I refer to statements by AD (Alexandre Dinerchtein) or by AY (An Yeong-kil). Because they refer to their own experience sometimes, it may be useful to note that AD was born in 1980 and became pro in 2002. AY was also born in 1980 and became pro in 1997.

1. AD: Wang Yang invention, no other examples. GoGoD: Agree, though we also have an example by AD.

2. AD claims "few examples". GoGoD agrees, but the book is called "New Moves" and as regards novelty we have to disagree: our examples date from over 100 years ago.

3. Unclear whether simply a pincer or a whole side is meant to be new, but GoGoD can take the 2008 example given back to 1994 (Cho Chikun) with 69 examples for the side position (and over 1100 for the pincer).

4. Earliest example given is 2008. GoGoD has exactly the same fuseki in 1993 (Cho hun-hyeon in Korea) and the "New Moves" example is actually the most recent of our 15 examples.

5. (a) AD: Popular some years ago in Korea. GoGoD: earliest example is 1958 in Japan. (b) AY: It could be a new joseki. GoGoD: over 100 examples. (c) AD: Is it Korean or Chinese? GoGoD: It's Japanese.

6. "Low sanrensei". Bit of a misnomer as only two star points are involved, but (digressing) actually even the Japanese seem to have made a mistake with the reading sanrensei. According to a transcription of a conversation between Kitani Minoru and Go Seigen, who "invented" what are now called sanrensei and nirensei, they used the readings sanrenboshi and nirenboshi. The term sanrenboshi came from writer Mitani Suihei. Misreadings are very common in Japanese, so "low sanrensei" doesn't register high on the grumble chart. AD has no examples. GoGoD ditto (as first three Black moves).

7. No AD claim as to date, but GoGoD earliest is 2004, so essentially we agree.

8. AD: "It was invented by myself". GoGoD: No. We've already treated this on L19. We have two (amateur) examples from before AD was born.

9. GoGoD has only one example - the same one as quoted by AD.

10. No date beyond "new" suggested, but GoGoD has either 1974 or 2000 depending on which position is being claimed as new.

11. AD: Well known, but surprised to see it in a pro game. GoGoD has Hasegawa playing it against Takagawa in 1947 and Takemiya against Ishida in 1990.

12. Very common in old China, and treated often in old Chinese joseki books. Earliest Japanese example 1749. Earliest example in modern pro play is 1981, and fairly common in pro play throughout 2000s.

13. N/A

14. AD mentions date 2006. GoGoD has earliest as 2002 (28 games in all).

15. AD: "Korean invention". GoGoD agrees - earliest 2003 and only three examples.

16. AD: 2009. We have 2008 but only six examples.

17. AY: "I've never seen this pincer". GoGoD: 11 games in all, going back to 1976 in Japan. First example in Korea: 2006. But note that this position is heavily dependent on the surroundings.

18. AD: Became popular a few years ago. The example is 2009. GoGoD has 40 examples; earliest is 1979 though by an amateur. First pro example is 1996.

19. No AD claim re date but AY played it as an insei. First GoGoD example is 1988 in Korea (when AY was 8).

20. AD: O Meien is a big fan of this. GoGoD: Maybe. But we have only 2 examples by him out of 647 games. Our earliest elsewhere is 1978 or 1986 depending on definitions.

21. Our only example is also the only AD example.

22. AD: "not a new move". GoGoD agrees (we go back to 1897). But AD: Rare. GoGoD: Depends on your definition of rare. We have 39 examples, quite a lot for most josekis in pro play.

23. AD: First played by Kim Man-su. GoGoD: Agree, if only first three Black moves meant, otherwise we have Japan (1986) and China (1988) before him (1997).

24. AY: "Brand new move to me". GoGoD has Shusai playing it in 1902. The Chinese example given by AD can also be pushed back to one by the same player in 2001.

25. N/A

My inference from these examples is that on the whole the database confirms the tenor of novelty in the book, and I repeat that the cases where it doesn't hardly make a ha'porth of difference to the content. The only criticism I think I might want to sustain is that AD, both in the book and in some of his postings on L19, suggests to me a disregard, or even contumely, for data from the Japanese go world, though I can see where this might come from. His own pro experience and the fact the Korean pro world gave Russia special help (via the Russian-speaking pro Ch'eon P'ung-cho, or Viktor Chun) would tend to create a bias towards Korean data. That could have been corrected, of course, by using GoGoD, but ...


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 Post subject: Re: "New Moves" - review (sort of)
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:08 pm 
Gosei
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Sounds like a very interesting book, I'll be sure to check it out the next time I visit het Paard in Amsterdam, especially so because I think European authors need all the help and exposure they can get.

John Fairbairn wrote:
17. AY: "I've never seen this pincer". GoGoD: 11 games in all, going back to 1976 in Japan. First example in Korea: 2006. But note that this position is heavily dependent on the surroundings.


I assume this is the pincer that is also discussed in a previous thread here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2680

If it is indeed that one, then I think the 1976 claim is a bit dubious, and 1987 would be more fair. The 1976 game has a different line of play, which happens to end in the same position. In that game, the pincer stone is already in place as a result of a High Chinese fuseki.

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 Post subject: Re: "New Moves" - review (sort of)
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:55 pm 
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I just wanted to say that I've really enjoyed the back and forth between John and Alex on this "new moves" issue, which I think started back in August. There's nothing better than following a lively and informed debate in which you end up actually learning something. A big thanks to John and Alex!

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