Move I've played for a few years without understanding it.

RobertJasiek · **#21**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 5 . X . . | $$| . . . X . . . . b , . 6 8 O 4 X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

White's double approach is wrong because Black cuts and now can choose a, b or c and get an excellent result, which also uses his handicap stones well. White cannot defend both groups with 1 one. This is also called splitting attack:)

daal · **#22**

Although the following situation is a bit different, the approach move is the same, and perhaps the comparison is of interest. In his book The ABC's of Attack and Defense, Michael Redmond uses the following diagram (just the right side, which I couldn't figure out how to post) as his first basic figure, and then spends the next 45 pages talking about it. It is presented not in the context of a handicap game, but rather as an alternative way for white to move into a san ren sei formation (instead of the usual approach at a). In this context, the black move at 2 seems to be a strong response.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

Redmond is mostly concerned with how black should deal with getting his Q10 stone pincered, but of course we also see white's plans as well. Chapter 2 then uses the following basic figure to discuss how black should deal with the double approach. He also goes on to examine the approach at a instead of at 3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . 3 . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#23**

shapenaji wrote:

...
I don't think it has an effect on my thoughts at all. My experience should lend itself to explaining my position. I don't need to resort to my rank to prove something, but rather to the knowledge that I gained in getting that rank.

I agree with the bolded statement. It's good that you resort to the knowledge that you gained by getting a particular rank.

What I am trying to say is that, there seems to be a good chance that someone that has a high rank has some degree of said knowledge. Of course, it is the knowledge, and not the rank that is important.

I guess I am just saying that, when someone has the "authority" of a high rank, it may be rational to take a bit of extra consideration in what they say, because the reason for that high rank is likely to have some relationship with more knowledge than those of lower rank.

The authority in itself is not what makes it useful to listen to someone. It's the fact that they likely have some degree of knowledge, because it has been exhibited on the go board. Their word is not absolute, but winning games does provide evidence that someone knows more about the game than weaker players, in my opinion.

Given a particular board position, a weaker player can obviously be correct when a stroner player is not. But there is probably a greater chance that the stronger player will be correct.

Kirby · **#24**

hyperpape wrote:

Kirby: I considered posting a similar point that while the argument from authority is a logical fallacy, it's not always unreasonable.

But in the present context, what's gained by it? We have several players of various strengths commenting on the position. Even if Magicwand is stronger than Harlequin, why cut off the discussion?

I don't think we should cut off discussion. Discussion is good. I was mainly arguing against the use of "the argument from authority" as a logical fallacy as applied to the present situation. That's because the authority is not arbitrary in this case.

I think it's certainly good not to cut off the discussion, and to continue analysis.

Harleqin · **#25**

RobertJasiek wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 5 . X . . | $$| . . . X . . . . b , . 6 8 O 4 X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

White's double approach is wrong because Black cuts and now can choose a, b or c and get an excellent result, which also uses his handicap stones well. White cannot defend both groups with 1 one. This is also called splitting attack:)

I agree with the splitting, but in the sequence you show, either :b3:

or

is misplaced.

One better way seems to be playing :b3:

at

directly. If White plays the tiger's mouth then, :b5:

can jump to O7, instead of making the empty triangle. If White extends to the centre, on the other hand:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . X . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . b O . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

... the jump is still good, since the corner group is strong and Black needs not fear the cut. This :b3:

has the advantage that White does not get to force at P4.

The other possibility is to play :b3:

as in your diagram, but then P4 should be answered like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O c . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 5 . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 a . X . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . b O 4 X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

This shape is more efficient, and the cut at 'b' is still a concern for White ('b' and 'c' are kind of miai). Black needs not fear White 'a'.

Magicwand · **#26**

Harleqin :
as usual your diag make sense and i respect your opinion very much.
but you also know that you can not win 5 stone handy with optimal moves alone.

examples:
1. capping on a handycap is also suboptimal because it is an overplay but everyone plays it.
2. white open wide on the side to invite black to jump in.(which will be an overplay if it was even game).

fact:
1. whatever you play in the beginning of the handycap game(more than 3) has to be an overplay up to certain degree.
2. what i play in handycap is not what i play in even game. i think that will be the case if you play handycap game.
3. you overcome handycap by creating an surrounding that will invite your opponent's mistake. (not fuseki)
4. you dont like me very much.

i have a feeling that you are stronger player than i am but i think i can play better handycap game than you for sure.

RobertJasiek · **#27**

Harleqin wrote:

in the sequence you show, either :b3: or :b5: is misplaced.

White's shape is equally bad (also with empty triangle), so it does not matter that B has an empty triangle.

Quote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O c . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 5 d . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 a . X . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . b O 4 X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

This shape is more efficient

No. It just has other (dis)advantages. After White c, White d threatens more than in my variation.

Magicwand · **#28**

IMO they both have good and bad side to it and can be played both ways.
if i had to choose i will choose Harleqin's variation but i am not saying that Robert's variation is wrong.

Harleqin · **#29**

RobertJasiek wrote:

Harleqin wrote:

in the sequence you show, either :b3:

or

is misplaced.

White's shape is equally bad (also with empty triangle), so it does not matter that B has an empty triangle.

I think that if Black has to invest that peeping stone, the inefficiencies of that black stone and the awkward white stone compensate to a certain degree (but I am not sure whether White should not answer the peep differently). One would not say that a tiger's mouth is inefficient just because it could be peeped, right? The black empty triangle seems to have a harder time to justify itself, in my eyes. I have some more thoughts about this efficiency issue, but that is another post on another day, I think.

Quote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O c . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 5 d . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 a . X . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . b O 4 X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

This shape is more efficient

No. It just has other (dis)advantages. After White c, White d threatens more than in my variation.

After white 'c', Black cuts at 'b', the way I see it. You cannot have everything. By the way, 'd' looks dubious to me: the white group does not gain a single liberty. Black can answer the threat in many ways that gain much more than 'd'. Example continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X . X 3 . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O X . . X . . | $$| . . . X . . . b . , . 5 2 O O X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . 4 . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

Again a miai situation. If White plays on the right side first, before :w3:

, I think that Black should take the left side with :b4:

or 'a':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X d . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X e . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . 4 2 O O X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

After that, 'd' would be answered by 'e'.

If White initially protects the cut on the left instead, the white stone on the right becomes "blighted". Note how immobilized it is compared to the situation where Black would now perhaps pincer this stone after making the empty triangle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . 1 . O O X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . 1 . O O X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

Now, if White plays on the right side, as you proposed, instead of starting this double approach immediately, it would threaten the second approach, as the right side group would have its base already. However, it would feel bad for Black to answer the approach move twice like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$| . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

So, finally, I think that this :w1:

is the right move, perhaps even a refutation of :bc:

.

Edit: add comparison diagram.

RobertJasiek · **#30**

Harleqin wrote:

'd' looks dubious to me

Aji. No need to use it with bad timing.

Harleqin · **#31**

RobertJasiek wrote:

Harleqin wrote:

'd' looks dubious to me

Aji. No need to use it with bad timing.

If I was in a sarcastic mood, I'd say that the "aji" of my opponent playing a bad move leaves me rather unworried. ;-)

Ah, darn, now I have said it anyway. Nevertheless, I simply do not see the value of the potential of butting a group into an existing hane, especially when White does not even really have the time to play the prerequisite move. What kind of timing do you have in mind? Do you see a way to make this a double threat? Is that really bigger than protecting the cut on the lower side?

RobertJasiek · **#32**

1) White extends upwards for eyespace.

2) Later, when surrounded from above and left, White increases his eyespace by a move like d.

3) Yet later, White attacks the aji.

mitsun · **#33**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Local tesuji. $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . O O . . | $$ . . . . X . X . . . | $$ . . . O X . . X . . | $$ , . X X O O X . W . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$---------------------[/go]

The position still looks good for B, but W does have a tesuji to gouge out some of the corner (or revive two dead stones).

Move I've played for a few years without understanding it.

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