Life In 19x19 :: Sandbagging

Dr. Matthew Norman, a criminal forensic psychiatrist in Atlanta, said most people who impersonate police are drawn to power and authority but feel unable to achieve that in their daily lives.

No need to complain about sandbaggers. You get a free teaching game.

No need to complain about sandbaggers. You get a free teaching game.

If I am in a need to clobber without switching on my brain, I have Aya and GnuGo at hand which I play without handi stones then.

Sandbagging is never a teaching game, come on :roll:

3.) Trying to be humble: If I am playing with people that I know personally, I do not wish to specify my rank as what I think it really is, because I am afraid that, if I do not live up to my rank, I will be perceived as arrogant. I do not want to be arrogant, so I try to be conservative when indicating my rank to people I know in real life.

What is the attraction? I'll be honest, I just don't understand what the attraction of ritually slaughtering beginners is. It seems to be very common in the Go community compared to other games out there.

Kirby wrote:

I think that is actually fear, not humility. "Humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less." "Thousands of humans have been brought to think that humility means pretty women trying to believe they are ugly and clever men trying to believe they are fools."

hum·ble/ˈhəmbəl/
Adjective: Having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance.
Verb: Lower (someone) in dignity or importance: "I knew he had humbled himself to ask for my help".

Quote:

hum·ble/ˈhəmbəl/
Adjective: Having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance.

I would say that the action I described is one in which I attempt to show a "modest or low estimate" of my own rank.

...

I think that deliberately understating your rank for fear you won't live up to it actually shows that you attach a fair amount of importance to your rank.

I think the most humble thing to do is state your rank exactly as an impartial observer would. Selling yourself short in the name of humility does neither you nor those around you any favors. Whatever humility is, I don't believe it involves having, or giving to others, an inaccurate representation of yourself.

But at best, I can just think of myself within some range of ability.

At the end of the game, I would rather have people think that I was being modest with my rank, and that I was really stronger than I had said than the other way around.

If it's the other thing around, then I'm just a talker or a bragger. I feel it is better if the moves you make brag for you than the words that you speak.

Author:	Javaness2 [ Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Sandbagging
What is the attraction? I'll be honest, I just don't understand what the attraction of ritually slaughtering beginners is. It seems to be very common in the Go community compared to other games out there.

Author:	snorri [ Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
You're talking about true, pathological sandbagging, right? Not just accidentally underrated players (which are pretty common.) Yeah, I don't get it either. Maybe it's a power thing, like people who impersonate law enforcement officers: http://www.macon.com/2010/01/10/980087/the-phenomenon-of-impersonating.html Quote: Dr. Matthew Norman, a criminal forensic psychiatrist in Atlanta, said most people who impersonate police are drawn to power and authority but feel unable to achieve that in their daily lives.

Author:	Shaddy [ Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
Beating up on weaker players is just fun sometimes, I guess. Some form of sandbagging shows up in pretty much every competitive online game I've played.

Author:	judicata [ Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
Some people have enjoyed slaughtering the weak since the beginning of time. If you aren't used to winning much, I can see how someone would get a rush out of it the first few times, but surely it would get old.

Author:	swatters [ Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
People that feel powerless in life need these kinds of outlets. They're sad and pathetic. Try to remember that when it happens to you. I pity the fools and feel fortunate that I'm not one of them.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Sandbagging http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4450	Page 1 of 2

Author:	tchan001 [ Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
Some people are probably frustrated at not being able to rise above their current level for a long period of time and just want to relive the moments of rising quickly. Some perhaps want to give lower ranks a taste of what it feels like to fight against someone strong. Some playfully destroy their opponent and then resign to preserve their weak rank. Others may play to punish braggarts who boast the sky while being a toad in a well.

Author:	lovely [ Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
Sandbaggers play to win. Non-sandbaggers play to learn.

Author:	karaklis [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
No need to complain about sandbaggers. You get a free teaching game. If I am in a need to clobber without switching on my brain, I have Aya and GnuGo at hand which I play without handi stones then.

Author:	Li Kao [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
karaklis wrote: No need to complain about sandbaggers. You get a free teaching game. In even games I see it the same way. But I get pissed if I have to give a player who is at least as strong as I am a handicap. But in my experience most sandbaggers on kgs are guests. I was rarely sandbagged by a normal player.

Author:	Javaness2 [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
karaklis wrote: No need to complain about sandbaggers. You get a free teaching game. If I am in a need to clobber without switching on my brain, I have Aya and GnuGo at hand which I play without handi stones then. Sandbagging is never a teaching game, come on

Author:	Toge [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
There is a player, mid kyu, who would play games against players who were 3-6 stones weaker than him without handicap. He would win most of those games and both players would have very small effect in their ranking. When he lost, however, the other player could get big enough boost to jump up in ranking. I guess the guy likes winning, doesn't care about playing against stronger players and all the while provides opportunity for those players who feel they are underranked. Can we call this honest sandbagging?

Author:	karaklis [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
Javaness2 wrote: Sandbagging is never a teaching game, come on I mean being sandbagged. You have plenty of moves to review where you could have done better.

Author:	Kirby [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
I do not typically intentionally sandbag, but below are three scenarios where sandbagging may be perceived due to my behavior: 1.) Getting a rank on KGS: Sometimes it is necessary to play weaker players on KGS to get a rank. You can try to get a rank with a bot or automatch, I suppose, too. But I have in the past, attempted to challenge users that have game offers up, until someone accepts a game. It's not always the case, but in my experience, weaker players are more willing to play a [?] player than stronger players. --- 2.) Earning a rank: When I started playing on Tygem, I didn't know much about the ranking system, so I intentionally put a rank that I thought might be too weak. That's because I didn't want to "cheat" by putting in an initial rank that was too high. That is, I wanted to "earn" my rank. The same is true when I play in AGA tournaments. Even if I have improved online, I do not update my rank for AGA tournaments, because I want to "earn" my rank, instead of bumping it up by talk. --- 3.) Trying to be humble: If I am playing with people that I know personally, I do not wish to specify my rank as what I think it really is, because I am afraid that, if I do not live up to my rank, I will be perceived as arrogant. I do not want to be arrogant, so I try to be conservative when indicating my rank to people I know in real life.

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
Kirby wrote: 3.) Trying to be humble: If I am playing with people that I know personally, I do not wish to specify my rank as what I think it really is, because I am afraid that, if I do not live up to my rank, I will be perceived as arrogant. I do not want to be arrogant, so I try to be conservative when indicating my rank to people I know in real life. I think that is actually fear, not humility. "Humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less." "Thousands of humans have been brought to think that humility means pretty women trying to believe they are ugly and clever men trying to believe they are fools."

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Author:	Bantari [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
Javaness2 wrote: What is the attraction? I'll be honest, I just don't understand what the attraction of ritually slaughtering beginners is. It seems to be very common in the Go community compared to other games out there. Not sure about that. In chess they have the issue of people using computer programs to play for them. For me that's the same thing - getting easy win, boosting your ego by easily crushing others, getting rank rewards, respect (until found out) and all that... To me it all has roots in the same thing: rank chasing combined with low self esteem. Same goes for escapers, and all kinds of other bad behaviors.

Author:	Kirby [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
daniel_the_smith wrote: Kirby wrote: 3.) Trying to be humble: If I am playing with people that I know personally, I do not wish to specify my rank as what I think it really is, because I am afraid that, if I do not live up to my rank, I will be perceived as arrogant. I do not want to be arrogant, so I try to be conservative when indicating my rank to people I know in real life. I think that is actually fear, not humility. "Humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less." "Thousands of humans have been brought to think that humility means pretty women trying to believe they are ugly and clever men trying to believe they are fools." I agree that what I described includes fear. After all, I even use the word "afraid" in the explanation (I am afraid that...). But when I google "define:humble", this is the definition I get: Quote: hum·ble/ˈhəmbəl/ Adjective: Having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance. Verb: Lower (someone) in dignity or importance: "I knew he had humbled himself to ask for my help". I would say that the action I described is one in which I attempt to show a "modest or low estimate" of my own rank. The reason I do this is because of fear. But I feel that this can still be described as being humble.

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
Kirby wrote: Quote: hum·ble/ˈhəmbəl/ Adjective: Having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance. I would say that the action I described is one in which I attempt to show a "modest or low estimate" of my own rank. I think that deliberately understating your rank for fear you won't live up to it actually shows that you attach a fair amount of importance to your rank. I think the most humble thing to do is state your rank exactly as an impartial observer would. Selling yourself short in the name of humility does neither you nor those around you any favors. Whatever humility is, I don't believe it involves having, or giving to others, an inaccurate representation of yourself.

Author:	Kirby [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
daniel_the_smith wrote: ... I think that deliberately understating your rank for fear you won't live up to it actually shows that you attach a fair amount of importance to your rank. Yes, that's probably true. I feel that it's one of the only indicators I have for how good I am at the game. In other things in life, like at my job, for example, people can talk themselves up or brag about some obscure knowledge that they might have. I don't put much value into this type of stuff. In go, your rank at least gives you a number that lets you know, objectively, how well you are doing. That said, I do not believe I can know with certainty what my rank actually is. daniel_the_smith wrote: I think the most humble thing to do is state your rank exactly as an impartial observer would. Selling yourself short in the name of humility does neither you nor those around you any favors. Whatever humility is, I don't believe it involves having, or giving to others, an inaccurate representation of yourself. I suppose, but I do not have an accurate representation of myself that I can trust. I know the rank that some go servers have given me, and I know the ranks of some people that I've beaten and lost to. But at best, I can just think of myself within some range of ability. At the end of the game, I would rather have people think that I was being modest with my rank, and that I was really stronger than I had said than the other way around. If it's the other thing around, then I'm just a talker or a bragger. I feel it is better if the moves you make brag for you than the words that you speak.

Author:	karaklis [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Sandbagging
Here in Germany you can assign any rank to yourself. That has led to the situation that many players are much weaker than their suggested rank is according to the EGF rating. Comparing to that sandbagging is quite rare. That's why I think that Kirby's approach is valid, that you have to earn your rank by playing rather than upgrading your rank by yourself. There are exceptions of course, e.g. when you're in the DDK ranges and improving fast. But if you're a regular tournament player (at least) in the SDK ranges, then it is better to get your rank from actual play.