SpongeBob Trickplay - Hamete - Bad Shape ?? 2008-03-08 02:23:57

If this has been discussed here already - please let me know.

I recently met this unusual response by white to my corner approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I was puzzled about how to respond to this. The move seems to claim a large corner and simultaneously attack my approaching stone. So to me, this looks like a perfect double purpose play.

When I did a database search after the game, it turned out that this move is only rarely played by professionials and normally only when white has another stone somewhere in the area of a. In the position from my game shown in the diagram, the white stone on the 4-4 point is much farther away. So I suspect that the attacking flavor of whites move is not that effective here.

But how does black make a good position? If he calmly plays at b, then the white circled stone seems to sort of undercut blacks position.

The next question is: Does white have any weakness in his corner that black can exploit?

In short: What are the drawbacks of white's move? Thanks!


PS: In the game, the continuation was like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . 6 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If white secures a large corner with a, black might next approach at b and maybe this result is acceptable for black. However, to me it looks like white is better off.

isshoni 2008-03-08 05:15:38

Here, I don't know, but there is a page about this footsweep on Sensei's Library:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointLowApproachFootsweep
(and a BQM). SL has a lot of joseki material that's easy to find (Reference Points>Joseki), so I usually start there. And there's Kogo's, it also "covers" this footsweep.

SpongeBob 2008-03-08 05:38:09

Hi isshoni,

thanks for this info. I should have looked on Sensei's or Kogo's, you are right. The page on Sensei's is exactly what I was looking for ...

Greetings, Bob

Bill Spight 2008-03-08 07:56:51



Well, maybe not. The SL page is unfortunately written to sound authoritative. It is not. In particular, the "Joseki 1" diagram is not joseki, nor is it as good for White as it suggests.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

As you say, this is not good for Black. The exchange, B1 - W2, strengthens White's corner, and does what for Black? And B5 is too close.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Joseki -- NOT!
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 B 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This diagram is a little better for Black, but not much. The exchange of B1 and WC is not good for Black here, because Black has lost the 3-3 invasion. Yes, you will sometimes see this sequence in pro games, but only in special circumstances.

I play the footsweep myself. (In fact, I was the first kid on my block to do so. ) It is a situational play. This is not the situation. Black's attitude in this case should be to regard it as kikasare, getting pushed around. White has played to protect his corner, but that is against the spirit of the 4-4 point. Black can be satsified with this exchange, and treat the BC stone lightly. It has done its work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Approach from the other side, too
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I would approach from the top. To be consistent, White will have protect the corner again, and Black can develop on the top side, as White falls behind.

Zepp 2008-03-08 08:04:26



Also, if I remember correctly Dinnerchstein explains a bit about this position in one of his reports of EGC 2007. Ill try to search it


edit: here it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDw2V3gkJnA&feature=related

isshoni 2008-03-08 08:54:18

Thanks for the input.
I usually start at SL, have a look at Kogo (well, only recently) and ask there or elsewhere (eg. here) if I have further question.
The problem is, as Bill has shown, one must have a critical eye to judge some of the content.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Joseki -- NOT!
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 B 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I understand that the exchange of B1 for WC is to Black's disadvantage because, for one thing, he lost the san-san invasion. But this sequence is made from more than that single exchange. I believe this is not considered Joseki but better for Black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

So, how far from an equal result do these 2 wrongs ("Joseki-NOT"'s White'2 and Black 1) stray from?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Ishida
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Ishida says of the footsweep:
"Black's [footsweep] is a greedy move which tries to defend the corner while attacking White. It is an unconventional move, so there are no particular variations which can be regarded as joseki. White can look upon his stone as a forcing move and switch elsewhere or he can choose between the leisurely move of "a" and the fighting move of "b"."


Much in line with what Bill says.

SpongeBob 2008-03-08 10:44:51

Hey, if you play it, and also Dinerchtein plays it, it must be a cool move - have to try it myself!

The link to Dinerchtein's report from the European Go Congress is just superb! (Don't miss the second part).

This also shows that Kogo's Joseki is missing some important moves, like the Korean one here with the circled stone (following variation from Lee Sedol's game):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ +-------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 6 . 2 W 3 . . .
$$ | . 8 4 . 1 5 . . .
$$ | . 7 . X . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Or does it show that Joseki has to be invented, rather than copied from a book?

Bill Spight 2008-03-08 13:01:05



Yes, it is a cool move, but it is not joseki. There are a couple of different kinds of situations in which you play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Attack while defending
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B1 not only protects the corner, it attacks the WC stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Moves 10 to 10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this case the WC stone inhibits Black from playing at ''a''. Note that Dinerchtein made the play in a similar position.

Imagist 2008-03-15 08:48:47

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 4 . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This sequence comes from a pro game in which a variation of the Kobayashi Fuseki was played. 2-3 seems like a very bizarre exchange to me (although 4 seems obvious). What is the meaning of this?

Bill Spight 2008-03-15 09:51:16



Black had the option at move 3 to play another approach on the left side, but decided to play on top side. The two marked stones had a good deal to do with that decision, I expect. B3 is a good extension from Black's 4-4 stone, and White's 6-3 stone inhibits Black's potential development if he plays on the left side.

If Black is going to play on the top side, B3 is the spot. After W2 a 2 space extension is not so good, because the resulting base cannot develop into the corner, and White can use W2 to attack it. Black does not want to build up a wall (starting with Ba - Wb) before extending to B3, because White will benefit from his own wall more than Black will from his. (It's not joseki, remember?)

I found W2 a bit surprising, but I suspect that it was played with the aim of following up with W4. White probably likes this variation better than either of the ones below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Variation 1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

W4 in this diagram is not as well supported, and the top left corner is open.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Variation 2
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Now White does not even have the invasion.

Imagist 2008-03-16 19:31:43

Interesting. Maybe I'll give that a try in my own games.