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| Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on time http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15051 |
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| Author: | ephriam22 [ Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on time |
I have played about 50 games against DGS robots and am ranked 12k. I would like to play more games with human opponents but when I do I frequently lose on time because of slow play, particularly during the endgame. DGS allows very slow games but that is too slow to be fun so I am caught in the middle. Any advice would be appreciated. Fred |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:51 am ] |
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Quote: I frequently lose on time because of slow play, Hi Fred,...that is too slow to be fun so I am caught in the middle. You yourself mentioned you have two conflicting issues: - You need slow time control ( esp. for the endgame ); - but you don't enjoy the slow time control. Potential solutions include ( but are not limited to ): - Improve your reading speed and skills so you don't need such slow time control; - Change your mentality to enjoy slow time control; - Change your mentality to feel indifferent about losing on time; - Don't play ( just watch, enjoy tsumego, lessons, books, videos, etc. ). |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
Here is what I did when I was around your level. Before leaving a local exchange and playing elsewhere, read out the probable local play some moves ahead. Then when you or your opponent comes back to that location later you will be prepared and can move fairly quickly. 
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| Author: | jeromie [ Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
What time settings do you consider to be too fast for the endgame? I think that will help me (and others) make recommendations for how to proceed. Many of us have gone through a phase where time management was a difficult part of the game! |
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| Author: | mongus [ Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
You could try playing on Pandanet. I find the Canadian time system used there to be much more relaxing. Or pull out a real board and play in meat space where you can both agree to not worrying about time controls. |
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| Author: | ephriam22 [ Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
I think I have been shooting myself in the foot with my time choice on KGS. My custom game selection has been --- Main time 30.00; Byo-Yomi time 0.30; Byo-Yomi Periods 5. Please don't ask me why I thought the Byo-Yomi time 0.30 signified a thirty minute period. I have an excuse, I'm old. Now that I consider it, even a slow player like me doesn't need 5 thirty minute Byo-Yomi periods so I'm going to specify 10.00 for 5 Byo-Yomi periods and if I get an opponent now and then, maybe I won't lose every game on time. Thank you all for your responses. They are really appreciated. Fred By the way Mongus, what is meat space? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:58 pm ] |
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Like a coffee shop, not virtual space. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:19 pm ] |
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Hi Fred, Quote: Main time 30.00; Byo-Yomi time 0.30; I'm not familiar with DGS's interface, but maybe they use the colon (:) for time settings....I thought the Byo-Yomi time 0.30 signified a thirty minute ...specify 10.00 for 5 Byo-Yomi periods KGS's 'default' setting is also 30 mins. + ( 5 x 30 secs ). Enjoy. |
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| Author: | zermelo [ Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
ephriam22 wrote: I think I have been shooting myself in the foot with my time choice on KGS. My custom game selection has been --- Main time 30.00; Byo-Yomi time 0.30; Byo-Yomi Periods 5. Please don't ask me why I thought the Byo-Yomi time 0.30 signified a thirty minute period. I have an excuse, I'm old. Now that I consider it, even a slow player like me doesn't need 5 thirty minute Byo-Yomi periods so I'm going to specify 10.00 for 5 Byo-Yomi periods and if I get an opponent now and then, maybe I won't lose every game on time. Thank you all for your responses. They are really appreciated. I think 1 minute byo-yomi is the maximum reasonable, if it is not a correspondence game, and few people will accept even that. If you cannot play a move in 1 minute, then that is the most important thing you need to practise at this point. It does not need to be a best move, it can be a bad move too. At your level, it's unlikely that you play a better move after 10 minute thinking than after half a minute anyway. By the way, on KGS you can set up games without time limits too, but I think most opponents will leave before game end if you start using more than a minute per move in the endgame often. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
Are the games you played against bots on DGS essentially real time games, as in you play in one sitting with on the order of seconds to minutes per move because the bot replies quickly, rather than "correspondence" ie a move a day or so? Does "DGS allows very slow games but that is too slow to be fun" mean correspondence games are too slow for you? I don't think DGS supports them, but OGS correspondence games support a feature called conditional moves, in which you can input your move along with instructions to the server to say "if my opponent answers there, then automatically play here for me". You can put in several choices in a tree structure. This means predictable sequences like an endgame first line hane can be played more quickly: you play the first line hane, and program in "if my opponent blocks, I connect, then if they connect the cutting point I play this other endgame move". It helps speed up the game. |
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| Author: | ephriam22 [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
Thank you EdLee and zermelo for responding. I must confess that I did not carefully read the section on Byo-Yomi time on KGS. When I played on IGS many years ago, the Byo-Yomi periods were for 25 moves and I just assumed that was standard. Slow as I am, I would rarely spend a minute on an end game move, but I may need more than 30 seconds on occasion. Uberdude, yes, the games that I played on DGS were real time. Thank you for responding. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:46 am ] |
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Quote: I may need more than 30 seconds on occasion. Hi Fred, it's completely reasonable to spend a few minutes on a tricky situation. This can happen at any phase of the game.
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| Author: | zermelo [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
ephriam22 wrote: I must confess that I did not carefully read the section on Byo-Yomi time on KGS. When I played on IGS many years ago, the Byo-Yomi periods were for 25 moves and I just assumed that was standard. Slow as I am, I would rarely spend a minute on an end game move, but I may need more than 30 seconds on occasion. Ah, I see. KGS does have different time settings, also the IGS style "Canadian" overtime. Sure using more time in endgame might be useful sometimes, and I guess you'll find opponents that are ok with 1 minute byo-yomi. (By byo-yomi I mean the Japanese original concept, i.e time per one move.) I still think it would be best to get used to a bit faster game especially if you want to improve. You will get more games played, also develop faster reading (important also for slow games!) with a bit of time pressure. If you want to play in a tournament some time, it is very rare to have more than 30 sec per move in amateur tournament as overtime. I also think that needing time 'especially in endgame' indicated you have somehow wrong priorities. Usually midgame is much more important and you should learn to spend more effort there. Again, if you want to improve! If you just like to kill time your own way, nothing wrong with that really! EdLee wrote: Hi Fred, it's completely reasonable to spend a few minutes on a tricky situation. This can happen at any phase of the game. Sure, if you have the time for it. But I still don't think it is reasonable to expect to always have that luxury! |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:22 am ] |
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Quote: Sure, if you have the time for it. About 800 million people are starving; 1.3 billion lack electricity.But I still don't think it is reasonable to expect to always have that luxury! Many don't have clean water or fresh air. The internet is a luxury. Blitz Go is a luxury. It's very relative. We make time for what's worthwhile for us, and we share the experience with like-minded people. |
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| Author: | ephriam22 [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
I don't have a clear understanding of what distinguishes "midgame" from "endgame" and would appreciate guidance. Fred |
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| Author: | dfan [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
The standard definition of the endgame in go is that the life-and-death status of all groups is settled and the players are just fighting over points. If the game is particularly peaceful this can happen relatively early! |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
dfan wrote: The standard definition of the endgame in go is that the life-and-death status of all groups is settled and the players are just fighting over points. I wouldn't call that standard. I would call that vulgar. The endgame is not just about points. As Takagawa said, the endgame is about fighting strength. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
ephriam22 wrote: I don't have a clear understanding of what distinguishes "midgame" from "endgame" and would appreciate guidance. Fred In the endgame the go board breaks up into independent, or nearly independent, regions of play. |
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| Author: | dfan [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Slow play especially in endgame results in lost game on |
Bill Spight wrote: dfan wrote: The standard definition of the endgame in go is that the life-and-death status of all groups is settled and the players are just fighting over points. I wouldn't call that standard. I would call that vulgar. The endgame is not just about points. As Takagawa said, the endgame is about fighting strength. I stand corrected! I just checked https://senseis.xmp.net/?Endgame and I think my definition is basically a paraphrase of the first sentence there, so either I missed a subtlety or that definition could use an editing pass as well. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:55 pm ] |
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Quote: I don't have a clear understanding of what distinguishes "midgame" from "endgame" and would appreciate guidance. Hi Fred,Nice definitions aside, your 'real' understanding ( in this case, at least ) will come from direct, personal experience and eureka moments -- it'll come from within. Enjoy.
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