In blitz internet games I've encountered non joseki plays in the following position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . a b c . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd like to talk about shape here. Joseki is 'a'. Several opponents have played 'b' or 'c'. If white tenukis or pincers then Black should attach at the 5-4 point (E4). This pushes white down. (The joseki's diagrammed under the tag).




Moves like 'b' and 'c' are interesting because they spoil this line for Black, but they don't really seem to fix White's shape correctly. How should one react?

I'm trying to resist my urge to start throwing stones at White simply because I see a non-joseki move. I have a feeling that Black might just be able to complete the joseki, tenuki, and attach later on. If White spends another move to fix shape, that would seem overconcertated.

On the other hand, I really want to cut off White's last stone! That's basic instinct, I hope.

Attached are some lines I came up with. I'm not entirely comfortable with this fight here, and that concerns me because I have to learn to make the most of my stones, especially when my opponent plays a move one or two spaces too loose. However, White's still got an extra stone ('b' and 'c' play some role in any fighting).

This is the 'b' move:


And the 'c' move I think black might be able to ask for even more:


Anyone have any general advice for dealing with non-joseki slack shapes? And is my fighting instinct here okay? Any comments -- even those that say I'm going about all this the wrong way -- would be appreciated.

Good, often the best "punishment" of a non joseki move is tenuki. I'd just extend from my 2 stones and think about exploiting the weakness later.




Humans are a greedy species.




Meh, seem like a lot of mistakes in them. Your assumption that e4 is the only place to start is wrong. d3 springs out at me as the shape weakness (for later):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Awesome for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 8 . 1 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Great for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 7 . 1 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc ????
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 8 . 1 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Good for black at the right time
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 5 9 c b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . d . . 8 0 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Compare this to the joseki move which covers the cut and gives black a much harder time to do anything effective:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Doh!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Btw, with the e4 attachment if white doesn't help the corner, he has this good empty triangle. Just because black often plays the way you showed in handicap games doesn't mean it's good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Go go empty triangle
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 4 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks Uberdude, I knew for sure that my fighting play had to be full of mistakes. One has to start somewhere though.

I didn't even look at the attachment underneath. I don't know if others have this, but I think of the fighting unit in go to be the group more than the stone. I'm sure this is a weakness, but as of yet it's the abstraction that's easiest to understand. It's for sure the reason why I focused on E4. It's using the existing stones in a way that has a fine chance of connecting back.

There's lots to digest here. This is a *hard* game.