Life In 19x19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/

KataGo self-play games + video reviews
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17217		 Page 1 of 10
Author:  Maharani [ Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  KataGo self-play games + video reviews
I've taken up the hobby of continuing (mostly) AlphaGo Teach positions to the end with KataGo (courtesy of ZBaduk). In each position, I played KataGo's favourite move once it either had at least 528,000 playouts, or was preferred to its second-favourite move by at least 0.3 pp decision and 0.3 pp winrate and had at least 12,000 playouts.

The resulting games so far have varied wildly (even with only minor changes in the fuseki). Some games are "typical" (?) bot games that seem to enter the endgame half-way through, with no more fights and the center turning into dame. But there are some games with large territories on both sides, too.

Game 1: https://online-go.com/review/431592 (continued from AlphaGo Teach's favourite position)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 55 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Game 2: https://online-go.com/review/432118


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 57 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Bonus game continued from a sequence suggested by ELF OpenGo v2: https://online-go.com/review/433241

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc ELF OpenGo v2's opening (white 57 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . X X X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Example screenshot from ZBaduk (LeeLa is in red, but I only ever played KataGo's moves): https://i.ibb.co/Xtmyt2z/Screen-Shot-20 ... -12-AM.png

Attachments:
KG_+_ELFOGv2_game.sgf [38.56 KiB]
Downloaded 2826 times
KG_+_AGT_game_2.sgf [7.65 KiB]
Downloaded 2927 times
KG_+_AGT_game_1.sgf [15.22 KiB]
Downloaded 3098 times
Author:  Maharani [ Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
In game 3, one side sacrifices a 20-stone group with the apparent purpose (?) of living with 6 points of territory on the other side... and of course, the game remains balanced after that: https://online-go.com/review/434009

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 56 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O . W O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . . . . X X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Game 4: https://online-go.com/review/434346

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 52 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Game 5: https://online-go.com/review/437664

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 55 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X B . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
KG_+_AGT_game_5.sgf [2.06 KiB]
Downloaded 2882 times
KG_+_AGT_game_4.sgf [2.17 KiB]
Downloaded 2947 times
KG_+_AGT_game_3.sgf [2.31 KiB]
Downloaded 2945 times
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The resulting games so far have varied wildly (even with only minor changes in the fuseki).
Maharani, Thanks.
Author:  Maharani [ Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Game 6: https://online-go.com/review/437850 (continued from AlphaGo Teach's take on the High Chinese)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 54 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Game 7 (in which white not only makes a wall, but successfully uses it to build a moyo)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 55 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . O O O . X . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Game 8 (the first game I've continued from a position with an early 3-3 at move 5 - amazingly, the projected winrate remains almost perfectly even until move 330)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 55 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . X . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
KG_+_AGT_game_8.sgf [2.59 KiB]
Downloaded 2930 times
KG_+_AGT_game_7.sgf [2.1 KiB]
Downloaded 2989 times
KG_+_AGT_game_6.sgf [2.4 KiB]
Downloaded 2989 times
Author:  Maharani [ Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Game 9 started from a super complicated fuseki and stayed complicated throughout.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 57 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Game 10, in which black actually creates a sizeable center territory rather than it all turning into dame.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc AlphaGo Teach's opening (white 54 %)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . B . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
KG_+_AGT_game_10.sgf [2.54 KiB]
Downloaded 2908 times
KG_+_AGT_game_9.sgf [1.97 KiB]
Downloaded 2934 times
Author:  xela [ Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Thanks, these games are fascinating!

Here are a few interesting moments from game 1:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19m25 White to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . 1 a . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The position after KataGo's very first move! The usual joseki move is (used to be pre-AI?) at a instead of :b25: Now what happens if white tries to push through and cut?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19m49 White to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . X X . . X O . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . O . 1 . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

How should white respond to black's attachment at :b49: ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19m83 White to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . X X . . X O . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . O O . O O X X X X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O X . . . X X O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black just pushed at :b83: Where should white play next?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19m92 Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . X X . . X O . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . O O a O O X X X X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 . O O X . . . X X O . . O |
$$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Can black push through the gap at a?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19m154 Black to play after white 153
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X X O . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O O . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . . X O O X . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . X O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 1 . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . X O . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . O X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . X O O X . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . O O O . O O X X X X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . X O X X O . . O |
$$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . O . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black to find a way into white's moyo.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The SGF below has LZ-258's answers to these and a few more of my silly questions. (I thought if AlphaGo set up the starting position, and KataGo played the moves, then Leela Zero should be allowed to join the party somehow!)



Attachments:
game01-comments.sgf [11.57 KiB]
Downloaded 4138 times
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
xela wrote:
Thanks, these games are fascinating!

Here are a few interesting moments from game 1:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19m25 White to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . 1 a . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The position after KataGo's very first move! The usual joseki move is (used to be pre-AI?) at a instead of :b25: Now what happens if white tries to push through and cut?


In their 3 volume set, The World's New Joseki, Jiang and Rui point out that all of the traditional 4-4 joseki are handicap go joseki. As such, they are not necessarily correct for even game play. The bots have doubled down on that point. :)
Author:  Maharani [ Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Thank you so much, xela! This is exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping this thread would produce. :3 I'm adding your variations and comments to the OGS demo board.
Author:  xela [ Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Maharani wrote:
Thank you so much, xela! This is exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping this thread would produce. :3 I'm adding your variations and comments to the OGS demo board.

My pleasure! I really had a lot of fun doing it.

Unfortunately I won't have time to do all ten games (or more, if you keep making them!) in such detail. Real life keeps on getting in the way of my go habit. Hoping that someone else steps up and writes comments on game 2 :-)
Author:  ez4u [ Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
What is missing is the explanation of why R5 is preferred over S5 in the bottom right but B15 is preferred over C15 in the top left.
Author:  xela [ Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Moves 1-24 were pulled out of AlphaGo Teach: KataGo was given this as the starting position. So B15 was chosen by KataGo as the best move in that position, but R5 was chosen by Maharani as an interesting position to explore.
Author:  Maharani [ Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
xela wrote:
[Move 24] White 55 % (AlphaGo Teach)
LZ-258 says 57%, near enough


With 7.5 komi, these bots give the following first-move winrates for black: AlphaGo Teach Q16 - 47.1 % (at 10,000,000 playouts), KataGo Q16 - 45.0 % (at 9,970,000 playouts on ZBaduk), Leela Zero R16 - 43.1 % (at 44,000 playouts on ZBaduk). (Leela Zero plays out Q16 78,000 times, but only gives it 42.6 %. KataGo also often gives lower-value (both decision and winrate) moves higher playouts in my self-play experiments.)

xela wrote:
Moves 1-24 were pulled out of AlphaGo Teach: KataGo was given this as the starting position. So B15 was chosen by KataGo as the best move in that position, but R5 was chosen by Maharani as an interesting position to explore.


Specifically, I chose it because it's AlphaGo Teach's "favourite" starting position. For this game, I always played its "preferred moves" (green) versus moves with better winrate values that "human players would play" (red). (There are several (I haven't counted them yet, but maybe a few dozen?) sequences in AGT's database that consist only of green moves. This game's sequence is the one with the highest winrate values at each move.)

xela, I just finished going through your comments, transferring them to the OGS demo board (replacing % with pp where appropriate... ;P). Super fascinating to this 10k. The hypothetical ko in the top-left corner was especially riveting :) Thank you again!
Author:  xela [ Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Some highlights from game 2. Text refers to the diagram above the text (I wish I could adjust the spacing to make this clearer).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 18, white to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . c X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As black, I get nervous in this type of position: I remember my teacher saying "you just kick to make white heavy, then attack", but the attack always seems to fizzle out. Those two stones are surprisingly resilient! (See discussion of Kirby's recent game: slightly different context, but similar idea.) LZ-258 has trouble choosing between a through c for white's next move. The game move (not KataGo's choice as the self-play for this game starts from move 26) is not on LZ's radar, but gets rated as equally good when I show it to LZ, even though to me it looks slightly outrageous. Try to guess what the game move is, then check the SGf below :-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Position after black 57
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . X . . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . a X X O X X . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X O . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . . X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . b . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


For me, the above position is the most interesting moment of the game. Black has just played the marked stone -- LZ's third choice (after a and b, and very slightly ahead of c). I think of this sort of thing as a "beginnner's moyo" move: pure gote to "surround 40 points of territory", completely unaware of how easy it is to reduce/invade that territory -- and this tactic works well against other beginners who also don't know how to handle the moyo. Of course KataGo has looked more deeply into the position, understands that the "territory" isn't real, but chooses to play this move anyway. Take a moment to try and imagine how the board might look, say, at move 120, then have a look at what actually happened.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to respond to move 66
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . X . . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X O . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . a X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So here (diagram above) the fun begins! How would you reply to marked stone? If you'd block at a, then both LZ and KataGo agree that you're making a terrible mistake! KataGo comes up with something much more creative.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play at move 85
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . X . . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X O . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . X X . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . X O . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black to play in the lower left: there's some aji there!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to defend at the lower right
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . X . . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X O . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . O . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . W . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . X . O X . X X . |
$$ | . O X X . . O . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X X . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O X O . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Move 98: white has just attacked with the marked stone. How would you defend?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 181: black pushes into the centre
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . X . . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . O . O X . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . X O O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . O X . X X O . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . O X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X . O . . O . . . . O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . O X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . a . . . . O O O X X |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . B O . . . . X X . X |
$$ | . O . O . . O . . X . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X . X O . X . . X . O X O X X . |
$$ | . O X X . X O . . . O O . O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O X O . . O X X X X X O X O . X . |
$$ | . . O X O O O X O . . O O O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X O X O X . X . X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Here, would you block at a? LZ-258 says yes, after some forcing moves at the bottom. KataGo plays a sequence of moves that look pretty crazy: it seems that white is just throwing away centre territory and getting nothing in return. LZ's evaluations (on 20k playouts per move) rate most of the next few white moves as mistakes (-5% or even -10% for some moves) and by move 213 thinks black is well ahead. But then KataGo's move 214 is better than LZ's best guess, +15%, and now LZ thinks it's 51% in black's favour, so almost as close to a level position as you can get. I'm reminded of the old commentaries where they say "at this point he knew it was going to be a half-pointer". Maybe KataGo, with many many playouts and the ability to estimate score, could see this from move 181?




Attachments:
game02_comments.sgf [4.13 KiB]
Downloaded 3985 times
Author:  Maharani [ Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
So excited to explore your .sgf comments later!! Thank you so much, xela :)

As a side note, if you only ever reviewed one other game from this series, I think the one most badly deserving it would be the "bonus game" continued from an ELF OpenGo v2 sequence (last game link in my first post). That game is nothing short of insane...
Author:  xela [ Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
This sgf is a lot less detailed than the last one, sorry. So many games, so little time!

Hoping to go through all the other games, but at my current rate it might be a year-long project or more. I'll go out of order and do the ELF one next, but don't hold your breath. And I won't be at all upset if someone else jumps in ahead of me and starts commenting on these games :-)
Author:  Maharani [ Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
xela wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 18, white to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . c X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As black, I get nervous in this type of position: I remember my teacher saying "you just kick to make white heavy, then attack", but the attack always seems to fizzle out. Those two stones are surprisingly resilient! (See discussion of Kirby's recent game: slightly different context, but similar idea.) LZ-258 has trouble choosing between a through c for white's next move. The game move (not KataGo's choice as the self-play for this game starts from move 26) is not on LZ's radar, but gets rated as equally good when I show it to LZ, even though to me it looks slightly outrageous. Try to guess what the game move is, then check the SGf below :-)


Interestingly, KataGo thinks white's standard response to the kick at D14 is the "worst" move in AGT's opening sequence, losing 2.0 pp at 30,000 playouts. (Of course, it's worthy to keep in mind that every move in AGT's database received 10,000,000 playouts.) KataGo thinks white should tenuki to attach at Q16 instead.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Maharani wrote:
Interestingly, KataGo thinks white's standard response to the kick at D14 is the "worst" move in AGT's opening sequence, losing 2.0 pp at 30,000 playouts. (Of course, it's worthy to keep in mind that every move in AGT's database received 10,000,000 playouts.) KataGo thinks white should tenuki to attach at Q16 instead.


With only a 2% difference, especially at only 30k playouts, I think that it's better to say that KataGo prefers Q16. :)
Author:  Maharani [ Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Bill Spight wrote:
Maharani wrote:
Interestingly, KataGo thinks white's standard response to the kick at D14 is the "worst" move in AGT's opening sequence, losing 2.0 pp at 30,000 playouts. (Of course, it's worthy to keep in mind that every move in AGT's database received 10,000,000 playouts.) KataGo thinks white should tenuki to attach at Q16 instead.


With only a 2% difference, especially at only 30k playouts, I think that it's better to say that KataGo prefers Q16. :)

That's definitely fair enough :) However, even at just 2.0 pp, it visibly remains one of the biggest winrate changes of the first 100 moves in the chart for all three games that contain this position...

https://i.ibb.co/KrnGWHT/Screen-Shot-20 ... -06-AM.png

https://i.ibb.co/QjnJ8rM/Screen-Shot-20 ... -24-AM.png

https://i.ibb.co/mTHrcKy/Screen-Shot-20 ... -08-AM.png
Author:  Maharani [ Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
KataGo self-play (New Zealand rules, 7 komi) - game 1: https://online-go.com/review/442122

It was not a tie.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Starting at game 44, we will explore 3-4 openings as well.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf file:



Comments by EverettLiu, OGS 9d.

Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_1.sgf [11.95 KiB]
Downloaded 3500 times
Author:  Maharani [ Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
KataGo self-play (New Zealand rules, 7 komi) - game 2: https://online-go.com/review/446099

Not a tie, either. In fact, the shortest self-play game in this thread so far. Each side has huge territories.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc At least thirty-five games continue at D4. Eighteen games continue at a instead.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf file:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_2.sgf [1.82 KiB]
Downloaded 3696 times
Page 1 of 10 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/